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Kathy,

You don't have to answer this on here, but is there any basis for the

fear that your x will hurt you? If the answer is no, which I presume it

is since OCD likes to find irrational fears to magnify in our kids,

would it help to remind her that this is not a rational fear? Or to

remind her that Dad will be at work (school, whatever) during the time

she is at school? I know that OCD makes our kids think they are being

rational so they don't believe us when we tell them that they are not.

Sometimes I talk to my son in a very calm, almost monotonic voice when

he is weirding out about something. I tell him, " you are hearing two

voices, one is the voice of OCD and the other is the voice of reason. I

am the voice of reason, and I need you to know that the odds of me

getting carjacked and murdered on the way to WalMart are about 1 in 5

million. It's not going to happen. " or whatever the issue is. I can

usually get him to calm down. Yesterday he felt his worms (which he

feeds his turtle) were contaminated because his sister was talking

loudly downstairs while he was opening the lid. I was able to talk him

out of throwing away the worms and starving his turtle. On his own, he

said, " Maybe I could just rinse them off " which I thought was a

reasonable solution. Of course I would rather have him realize that the

stupid worms are not even contaminated, but the solution was a better

outcome than I expected.

If her fear is based on something that has happened in the past would

something like a restraining order make her feel like you are safer?

Has your mom read any of the OCD books? When I came out of the closet

to my parents about 's OCD they went right out and bought Dr.

Chansky's book, and the next time I talked to them they were

well-informed and supportive. (I had kept it a secret from them for

about 6 mos. for fear they would not react well, which I wouldn't have

been able to handle.) If your mom has the internet, there is a list

like this one for family members.

I hope things begin to stabalize and calm down for you and your girls!

Kim in IA ( 15 OCD)

>

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Thanks for your input Kim.

There is no basis for her to fear my x. He does act irrational at

times, yet has never been physically violent. But we have had

violence issues in our family lately. My brother in law beat up his

wife recently and almost killed her, put her in the hospital.

Also, I run a family daycare out of my home, and about 2 months

ago, I had a non-custodial parent of one of the children that I

watch, come and try to remove the child from daycare. Well, the

custodial parent happened to be here, so it escalated into a

physical fight in front of all of my daycare children. I got them

all out of the room (the children), but they heard screaming

profanities and a very violent fist fight. It was a gay couple, in

case you are picturing a man hitting a woman. And to top it off,

one of the partners (the aggressive one) was my own niece. So, I

have had a restraining order on my niece for some time, although my

daughter just can't seem to understand (or else it's the ocd), that

the protective order will protect us. Although, I have to admit, I

didn't feel very protected by the police that day that I called 911,

when they told me since I run a business, I have to expect things

like this to happen.

Sorry, to go on and on, but there is background of violence, but

none from the father. Although her father does react with loud

voice and does stress us all out. It's hard to explain.

And her father doesn't work until the afternoon. So, it's kind of

hard to tell her he'll be at work.

As far as my mother, she wants nothing to do with mental illness,

(her words). Yes, this hurts me greatly, she is like a second

parent to my girls, but tells me flat out, " I can't deal with it. " I

so wish she would educate herself and get involved, but honestly I

think she knows that if she does then the children will look to her

for help and she just doesn't want to deal with it. She sees that

sense she plays naieve about it, they really don't look to her. If

that makes sense.

Thank you for your advice, it all helps me so much!!

Kathy

> Kathy,

> You don't have to answer this on here, but is there any basis for

the

> fear that your x will hurt you? If the answer is no, which I

presume it

> is since OCD likes to find irrational fears to magnify in our

kids,

> would it help to remind her that this is not a rational fear? Or

to

> remind her that Dad will be at work (school, whatever) during the

time

> she is at school? I know that OCD makes our kids think they are

being

> rational so they don't believe us when we tell them that they are

not.

> Sometimes I talk to my son in a very calm, almost monotonic voice

when

> he is weirding out about something. I tell him, " you are hearing

two

> voices, one is the voice of OCD and the other is the voice of

reason. I

> am the voice of reason, and I need you to know that the odds of me

> getting carjacked and murdered on the way to WalMart are about 1

in 5

> million. It's not going to happen. " or whatever the issue is. I

can

> usually get him to calm down. Yesterday he felt his worms (which

he

> feeds his turtle) were contaminated because his sister was talking

> loudly downstairs while he was opening the lid. I was able to

talk him

> out of throwing away the worms and starving his turtle. On his

own, he

> said, " Maybe I could just rinse them off " which I thought was a

> reasonable solution. Of course I would rather have him realize

that the

> stupid worms are not even contaminated, but the solution was a

better

> outcome than I expected.

>

> If her fear is based on something that has happened in the past

would

> something like a restraining order make her feel like you are

safer?

>

> Has your mom read any of the OCD books? When I came out of the

closet

> to my parents about 's OCD they went right out and bought Dr.

> Chansky's book, and the next time I talked to them they were

> well-informed and supportive. (I had kept it a secret from them

for

> about 6 mos. for fear they would not react well, which I wouldn't

have

> been able to handle.) If your mom has the internet, there is a

list

> like this one for family members.

>

> I hope things begin to stabalize and calm down for you and your

girls!

>

> Kim in IA ( 15 OCD)

>

>

> >

>

>

>

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Tammy,

Sorry you had such a rough visit to the doctor today!

I, too, have been through a lot regarding home schooing since my son's

diagnosis. We are " lifers " as well. It has been good for our family

until my son's OCD onset a year ago. Most of his contamination issues

involve our home and his sister, though, so this year he is in public

school for the first time. Some of his doctors have been pro-home

school (his psychologist is pro) and some have been con or at least

hesitant to be pro, like his pediatrician and his psychiatrist.

Without restarting the debate on home schooling, each family must decide

which school choice is best for its needs. When we started, we had to

move a lot (military), so it worked for us as far as our kids having

fewer gaps in their educations. Then we got to like it and stayed with

it. We also do community theatre so are up late when there are shows.

Having a flexible school schedule is a good fit.

Having said that, many people (friends and acquaintences) want to tell

us that the kids should all be in school, that 's OCD is enough

stress for me and that I don't need schooling stress on top of that. I

guess if I was getting a lot of that from doctors, I would have to look

for someone just as qualified who would support my decision.

As far as the staying up late, do your girls take their zoloft in the

daytime? With , I have found that the earlier in the day he takes

his, the better he sleeps at night. At first we were giving it later in

the day, and he couldn't go to sleep at all. Now he takes it by 7 a.m.

every school day, sometimes a bit later on the weekends. Being " in

school " didn't make a difference. He would sleep all the way there in

the car and sleep through history class and finally wake up after 2nd

period P.E. class. When we finally switched the time he took the zoloft

it helped. (he still snoozes some days in history, though.) Now he is

usually asleep by 10 or 11 p.m., and takes a nap between school and

dinner most days (he's 15).

You're not the world's worst mom. You're doing what you think is best

for your family and making personal sacrifices to do it. Hang in there!

Kim in IA (2 Home school grads, 15 OCD in p.s., 2 h.s. girls 5th

and 3rd)

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I am sorry you were made to feel so bad by your children's doctor. That is

terrible. Though I do not homeschool, I do respect your choice. As for the

sleeping issue, I am wondering have they always been like this or is it a newer

thing? My daughter, during her first depression couldn't sleep at night. She

was awake all through the night and then would finally fall asleep and it was

challenging to get her up. She then had trouble staying awake during the day.

Now, the depression that she just recently had, acted differently. She was

already on 150 mg of Zoloft and wasn't able to stay awake. This is a 13 year

old girl and it took everything to get her to stay up until 8. The pharmacist

thought it was the Zoloft causing this. We upped her dose to 200 mg due to

some issues, and it took away her depression and fixed her sleep issue. It

turned out to be the depression was causing the problem. She now can stay awake

until around 10, sleeps normally and is much easier to wake up in the morning.

In her case depression acted differently both times. Good luck. Kim

In a message dated 12/8/2004 11:41:29 PM Central Standard Time,

susabean@... writes:

My girls are both night owls, and

no matter what I do, they seem to stay up all night and want to sleep until

early afternoon. I have brought this to the pdoc's attention, thinking it

may be medicine related, and have been told that it isn't....that it is

basically parenting related. She didn't say it like that, but basicallly

told me to put them to bed earlier and get them up earlier. Well, duh.

Like I haven't tried that.

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we too are homeschooling and feeling a ton of pressure from Shads

Psychiatrist to go back in on jan 5th..we have been in and out and of and on

homeschooling since k and I just know jan 5th wont work either...I have no

homeschool support system right now and I know how you feel when people

begin to assosiate ocd with staying at home..we stayed at home in the first

place because of ocd.

Its easier said than done but i would find a different doc who supports your

views and tries to help in any situation..

and I have been called over protective..hey..call me overprotective rather

than call me from school cause my son is having yet another ocd a panic

attack!

need advice

>

>

> Hi. I don't often post, but I lurk and read all the posts. I need some

> advice, if that's ok. I am feeling very much like throwing in the towel.

> We went to the pdoc today and that didn't make it any better.

>

> First, a little background. My oldest dd, 11, had an acute onset of ocd

> in June. It was pure obsessive thought, with scrupulosity and

religiousity

> thrown in for good measure. She was seen by a psychiatrist, and put on 25

> mg of zoloft, which has been slowly increased to her present dosage of 100

> mg. She was seeing a psychologist, but I really don't think she had true

> cbt/erp therapy, although the therapist said that was what she did.

Anyway,

> the therapist d/c'd the therapy, so dd has been on meds only and coping

> pretty well. Younger dgt, 8, has been dx'd with general anxiety disorder.

> She is fearful of a lot of things, and she doesn't sleep unless she is in

> between my dh and I. She was initially put on 5 mg buspar, but I saw very

> little change in her. She was put on 25 mg of zoloft today. Both girls

are

> homeschooled, and have been since the beginning. Homeschooling is a way

of

> life for us, and I am not open to public school right now, as I do not

like

> the schools at which they would attend. My girls are both night owls, and

> no matter what I do, they seem to stay up all night and want to sleep

until

> early afternoon. I have brought this to the pdoc's attention, thinking it

> may be medicine related, and have been told that it isn't....that it is

> basically parenting related. She didn't say it like that, but basicallly

> told me to put them to bed earlier and get them up earlier. Well, duh.

> Like I haven't tried that.

>

> Here's where I need the advice. I left the office today in tears. The

> pdoc basically told me that if the girls were in school, they would get

> up....that homeschooling allows them to remain in this pattern. My take

on

> this is different....if they were in school, they would be missing a lot

of

> school or being very late, as they are very difficult or impossible to

waken

> in the morning. She also told me that the reason I don't put them into

> school is that perhaps I am overprotective. This may or may not be true,

> but who is she to question how we school our children? Would she have the

> same concerns if they were privately schooled?? I said as much to her,

and

> she backed off, but it is apparent she doesn't think very much of

> homeschooling. I don't need her approval, but I don't want her

attributing

> things to homeschooling that aren't attributable, if that makes sense.

She

> then gave me, very reluctantly, a medication called Provigil. It is a med

> used for people with narcolepsy. The theory is that if I keep them up all

> day, they will sleep at night. She does not want to give them sleeping

> pills, as she does not want them to get dependent upon them, which I

> understand. I have used benedryl, which works to a degree with one dgt,

but

> hypes the other one up. The Provigil is temporary until we get them

> " switched back around " .

>

> Here's the thing. I don't like the idea of giving them this drug. I am

> also not convinced that my 8 year old needs zoloft. Yet when I try and

> express this, I don't feel that I get anywhere. Also, I am very

frustrated

> over what seems to be a judgement regarding our homeschooling. I am

feeling

> as if I should get the world's worst mother award....and I don't know what

> to do from here. Any advice?

>

> Thanks for listening, if you got this far.....

>

> Blessings,

> Tammy

> ---

> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

> Version: 6.0.789 / Virus Database: 534 - Release Date: 11/07/2004

>

>

>

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we too are homeschooling and feeling a ton of pressure from Shads

Psychiatrist to go back in on jan 5th..we have been in and out and of and on

homeschooling since k and I just know jan 5th wont work either...I have no

homeschool support system right now and I know how you feel when people

begin to assosiate ocd with staying at home..we stayed at home in the first

place because of ocd.

Its easier said than done but i would find a different doc who supports your

views and tries to help in any situation..

and I have been called over protective..hey..call me overprotective rather

than call me from school cause my son is having yet another ocd a panic

attack!

need advice

>

>

> Hi. I don't often post, but I lurk and read all the posts. I need some

> advice, if that's ok. I am feeling very much like throwing in the towel.

> We went to the pdoc today and that didn't make it any better.

>

> First, a little background. My oldest dd, 11, had an acute onset of ocd

> in June. It was pure obsessive thought, with scrupulosity and

religiousity

> thrown in for good measure. She was seen by a psychiatrist, and put on 25

> mg of zoloft, which has been slowly increased to her present dosage of 100

> mg. She was seeing a psychologist, but I really don't think she had true

> cbt/erp therapy, although the therapist said that was what she did.

Anyway,

> the therapist d/c'd the therapy, so dd has been on meds only and coping

> pretty well. Younger dgt, 8, has been dx'd with general anxiety disorder.

> She is fearful of a lot of things, and she doesn't sleep unless she is in

> between my dh and I. She was initially put on 5 mg buspar, but I saw very

> little change in her. She was put on 25 mg of zoloft today. Both girls

are

> homeschooled, and have been since the beginning. Homeschooling is a way

of

> life for us, and I am not open to public school right now, as I do not

like

> the schools at which they would attend. My girls are both night owls, and

> no matter what I do, they seem to stay up all night and want to sleep

until

> early afternoon. I have brought this to the pdoc's attention, thinking it

> may be medicine related, and have been told that it isn't....that it is

> basically parenting related. She didn't say it like that, but basicallly

> told me to put them to bed earlier and get them up earlier. Well, duh.

> Like I haven't tried that.

>

> Here's where I need the advice. I left the office today in tears. The

> pdoc basically told me that if the girls were in school, they would get

> up....that homeschooling allows them to remain in this pattern. My take

on

> this is different....if they were in school, they would be missing a lot

of

> school or being very late, as they are very difficult or impossible to

waken

> in the morning. She also told me that the reason I don't put them into

> school is that perhaps I am overprotective. This may or may not be true,

> but who is she to question how we school our children? Would she have the

> same concerns if they were privately schooled?? I said as much to her,

and

> she backed off, but it is apparent she doesn't think very much of

> homeschooling. I don't need her approval, but I don't want her

attributing

> things to homeschooling that aren't attributable, if that makes sense.

She

> then gave me, very reluctantly, a medication called Provigil. It is a med

> used for people with narcolepsy. The theory is that if I keep them up all

> day, they will sleep at night. She does not want to give them sleeping

> pills, as she does not want them to get dependent upon them, which I

> understand. I have used benedryl, which works to a degree with one dgt,

but

> hypes the other one up. The Provigil is temporary until we get them

> " switched back around " .

>

> Here's the thing. I don't like the idea of giving them this drug. I am

> also not convinced that my 8 year old needs zoloft. Yet when I try and

> express this, I don't feel that I get anywhere. Also, I am very

frustrated

> over what seems to be a judgement regarding our homeschooling. I am

feeling

> as if I should get the world's worst mother award....and I don't know what

> to do from here. Any advice?

>

> Thanks for listening, if you got this far.....

>

> Blessings,

> Tammy

> ---

> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

> Version: 6.0.789 / Virus Database: 534 - Release Date: 11/07/2004

>

>

>

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In short - dump the doc.

>

> Hi. I don't often post, but I lurk and read all the posts. I

need some

> advice, if that's ok. I am feeling very much like throwing in the

towel.

> We went to the pdoc today and that didn't make it any better.

>

> First, a little background. My oldest dd, 11, had an acute onset

of ocd

> in June. It was pure obsessive thought, with scrupulosity and

religiousity

> thrown in for good measure. She was seen by a psychiatrist, and

put on 25

> mg of zoloft, which has been slowly increased to her present dosage

of 100

> mg. She was seeing a psychologist, but I really don't think she

had true

> cbt/erp therapy, although the therapist said that was what she

did. Anyway,

> the therapist d/c'd the therapy, so dd has been on meds only and

coping

> pretty well. Younger dgt, 8, has been dx'd with general anxiety

disorder.

> She is fearful of a lot of things, and she doesn't sleep unless she

is in

> between my dh and I. She was initially put on 5 mg buspar, but I

saw very

> little change in her. She was put on 25 mg of zoloft today. Both

girls are

> homeschooled, and have been since the beginning. Homeschooling is

a way of

> life for us, and I am not open to public school right now, as I do

not like

> the schools at which they would attend. My girls are both night

owls, and

> no matter what I do, they seem to stay up all night and want to

sleep until

> early afternoon. I have brought this to the pdoc's attention,

thinking it

> may be medicine related, and have been told that it isn't....that

it is

> basically parenting related. She didn't say it like that, but

basicallly

> told me to put them to bed earlier and get them up earlier. Well,

duh.

> Like I haven't tried that.

>

> Here's where I need the advice. I left the office today in

tears. The

> pdoc basically told me that if the girls were in school, they would

get

> up....that homeschooling allows them to remain in this pattern. My

take on

> this is different....if they were in school, they would be missing

a lot of

> school or being very late, as they are very difficult or impossible

to waken

> in the morning. She also told me that the reason I don't put them

into

> school is that perhaps I am overprotective. This may or may not be

true,

> but who is she to question how we school our children? Would she

have the

> same concerns if they were privately schooled?? I said as much to

her, and

> she backed off, but it is apparent she doesn't think very much of

> homeschooling. I don't need her approval, but I don't want her

attributing

> things to homeschooling that aren't attributable, if that makes

sense. She

> then gave me, very reluctantly, a medication called Provigil. It

is a med

> used for people with narcolepsy. The theory is that if I keep them

up all

> day, they will sleep at night. She does not want to give them

sleeping

> pills, as she does not want them to get dependent upon them, which I

> understand. I have used benedryl, which works to a degree with one

dgt, but

> hypes the other one up. The Provigil is temporary until we get them

> " switched back around " .

>

> Here's the thing. I don't like the idea of giving them this

drug. I am

> also not convinced that my 8 year old needs zoloft. Yet when I try

and

> express this, I don't feel that I get anywhere. Also, I am very

frustrated

> over what seems to be a judgement regarding our homeschooling. I

am feeling

> as if I should get the world's worst mother award....and I don't

know what

> to do from here. Any advice?

>

> Thanks for listening, if you got this far.....

>

> Blessings,

> Tammy

> ---

> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

> Version: 6.0.789 / Virus Database: 534 - Release Date: 11/07/2004

>

>

>

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In short - dump the doc.

>

> Hi. I don't often post, but I lurk and read all the posts. I

need some

> advice, if that's ok. I am feeling very much like throwing in the

towel.

> We went to the pdoc today and that didn't make it any better.

>

> First, a little background. My oldest dd, 11, had an acute onset

of ocd

> in June. It was pure obsessive thought, with scrupulosity and

religiousity

> thrown in for good measure. She was seen by a psychiatrist, and

put on 25

> mg of zoloft, which has been slowly increased to her present dosage

of 100

> mg. She was seeing a psychologist, but I really don't think she

had true

> cbt/erp therapy, although the therapist said that was what she

did. Anyway,

> the therapist d/c'd the therapy, so dd has been on meds only and

coping

> pretty well. Younger dgt, 8, has been dx'd with general anxiety

disorder.

> She is fearful of a lot of things, and she doesn't sleep unless she

is in

> between my dh and I. She was initially put on 5 mg buspar, but I

saw very

> little change in her. She was put on 25 mg of zoloft today. Both

girls are

> homeschooled, and have been since the beginning. Homeschooling is

a way of

> life for us, and I am not open to public school right now, as I do

not like

> the schools at which they would attend. My girls are both night

owls, and

> no matter what I do, they seem to stay up all night and want to

sleep until

> early afternoon. I have brought this to the pdoc's attention,

thinking it

> may be medicine related, and have been told that it isn't....that

it is

> basically parenting related. She didn't say it like that, but

basicallly

> told me to put them to bed earlier and get them up earlier. Well,

duh.

> Like I haven't tried that.

>

> Here's where I need the advice. I left the office today in

tears. The

> pdoc basically told me that if the girls were in school, they would

get

> up....that homeschooling allows them to remain in this pattern. My

take on

> this is different....if they were in school, they would be missing

a lot of

> school or being very late, as they are very difficult or impossible

to waken

> in the morning. She also told me that the reason I don't put them

into

> school is that perhaps I am overprotective. This may or may not be

true,

> but who is she to question how we school our children? Would she

have the

> same concerns if they were privately schooled?? I said as much to

her, and

> she backed off, but it is apparent she doesn't think very much of

> homeschooling. I don't need her approval, but I don't want her

attributing

> things to homeschooling that aren't attributable, if that makes

sense. She

> then gave me, very reluctantly, a medication called Provigil. It

is a med

> used for people with narcolepsy. The theory is that if I keep them

up all

> day, they will sleep at night. She does not want to give them

sleeping

> pills, as she does not want them to get dependent upon them, which I

> understand. I have used benedryl, which works to a degree with one

dgt, but

> hypes the other one up. The Provigil is temporary until we get them

> " switched back around " .

>

> Here's the thing. I don't like the idea of giving them this

drug. I am

> also not convinced that my 8 year old needs zoloft. Yet when I try

and

> express this, I don't feel that I get anywhere. Also, I am very

frustrated

> over what seems to be a judgement regarding our homeschooling. I

am feeling

> as if I should get the world's worst mother award....and I don't

know what

> to do from here. Any advice?

>

> Thanks for listening, if you got this far.....

>

> Blessings,

> Tammy

> ---

> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

> Version: 6.0.789 / Virus Database: 534 - Release Date: 11/07/2004

>

>

>

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We homeschooled our 2 kids for the past10 years. My dh and I owned a

janitorial business. All the work was from about 5:00pm - 1:00am. If our

kids had been in public school, we would have never seen them. We often

brought them to work with us and paid them for helping out. It was fun.

Of course we all stayed up late and got up late in the morning, but I was

amazed at how many people had a problem with that. It was like if you

don't do things exactly the same as everybody else...but how could we get

up at 6:00am if we were working late at night? Before we had kids, dh and

I were CNAs at the hospital and worked the night shift. We slept during

the day. I don't understand why people get so stuck on this whole sleep

thing. Now, dh is working days and I mostly stay home. My dd is in public

school and ds at age 16 is going to the local college. We still have

trouble getting to bed early and getting up in the morning. I think we

are just night people. My dd goes to bed on time, but tosses and turns

for an hour or so before she can fall asleep. Then in the morning it is

hard to pull her out of bed to get going. I really think that there are

just night people and morning people and I think it is not something that

you can just change because somebody else thinks you should. My dd is

going back to homeschool next year. We mostly put her in public this year

for the exposure in her fight against OCD. She has done so well! But she

says she learned more in homeschool.

On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 16:59:37 -0500 " Ruehlman "

writes:

>

> My girls are both night owls, and

> no matter what I do, they seem to stay up all night and want to

> sleep until

> early afternoon.

>

>

> I know many many homeschooling families that are night owls. We were

> for a long time too. I'm not sure what's wrong with it, cause they

> don't *have* to get up for anything. It seems like it's just an

> idea that you're lazy or something if you sleep late, but if you're

> going to bed late, then of course you're going to sleep late. Is it

> the same number of hours of sleep? They're not sleeping too long,

> right? You could pretend you lived in another part of the world, and

> adapt that time zone to suit your family.

>

>

>

>

>

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We homeschooled our 2 kids for the past10 years. My dh and I owned a

janitorial business. All the work was from about 5:00pm - 1:00am. If our

kids had been in public school, we would have never seen them. We often

brought them to work with us and paid them for helping out. It was fun.

Of course we all stayed up late and got up late in the morning, but I was

amazed at how many people had a problem with that. It was like if you

don't do things exactly the same as everybody else...but how could we get

up at 6:00am if we were working late at night? Before we had kids, dh and

I were CNAs at the hospital and worked the night shift. We slept during

the day. I don't understand why people get so stuck on this whole sleep

thing. Now, dh is working days and I mostly stay home. My dd is in public

school and ds at age 16 is going to the local college. We still have

trouble getting to bed early and getting up in the morning. I think we

are just night people. My dd goes to bed on time, but tosses and turns

for an hour or so before she can fall asleep. Then in the morning it is

hard to pull her out of bed to get going. I really think that there are

just night people and morning people and I think it is not something that

you can just change because somebody else thinks you should. My dd is

going back to homeschool next year. We mostly put her in public this year

for the exposure in her fight against OCD. She has done so well! But she

says she learned more in homeschool.

On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 16:59:37 -0500 " Ruehlman "

writes:

>

> My girls are both night owls, and

> no matter what I do, they seem to stay up all night and want to

> sleep until

> early afternoon.

>

>

> I know many many homeschooling families that are night owls. We were

> for a long time too. I'm not sure what's wrong with it, cause they

> don't *have* to get up for anything. It seems like it's just an

> idea that you're lazy or something if you sleep late, but if you're

> going to bed late, then of course you're going to sleep late. Is it

> the same number of hours of sleep? They're not sleeping too long,

> right? You could pretend you lived in another part of the world, and

> adapt that time zone to suit your family.

>

>

>

>

>

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Guest guest

We homeschooled our 2 kids for the past10 years. My dh and I owned a

janitorial business. All the work was from about 5:00pm - 1:00am. If our

kids had been in public school, we would have never seen them. We often

brought them to work with us and paid them for helping out. It was fun.

Of course we all stayed up late and got up late in the morning, but I was

amazed at how many people had a problem with that. It was like if you

don't do things exactly the same as everybody else...but how could we get

up at 6:00am if we were working late at night? Before we had kids, dh and

I were CNAs at the hospital and worked the night shift. We slept during

the day. I don't understand why people get so stuck on this whole sleep

thing. Now, dh is working days and I mostly stay home. My dd is in public

school and ds at age 16 is going to the local college. We still have

trouble getting to bed early and getting up in the morning. I think we

are just night people. My dd goes to bed on time, but tosses and turns

for an hour or so before she can fall asleep. Then in the morning it is

hard to pull her out of bed to get going. I really think that there are

just night people and morning people and I think it is not something that

you can just change because somebody else thinks you should. My dd is

going back to homeschool next year. We mostly put her in public this year

for the exposure in her fight against OCD. She has done so well! But she

says she learned more in homeschool.

On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 16:59:37 -0500 " Ruehlman "

writes:

>

> My girls are both night owls, and

> no matter what I do, they seem to stay up all night and want to

> sleep until

> early afternoon.

>

>

> I know many many homeschooling families that are night owls. We were

> for a long time too. I'm not sure what's wrong with it, cause they

> don't *have* to get up for anything. It seems like it's just an

> idea that you're lazy or something if you sleep late, but if you're

> going to bed late, then of course you're going to sleep late. Is it

> the same number of hours of sleep? They're not sleeping too long,

> right? You could pretend you lived in another part of the world, and

> adapt that time zone to suit your family.

>

>

>

>

>

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Lyme disease and other tick-borne infections, including bartonella, have

also been associated with sudden-onset OCD. Pam Weintraub

wrote on 2/13/2005, 8:13 PM:

>

>

> Hi, welcome, I have a son, 16, with OCD. His began a few months

> before he turned 12.

>

> You might have already done this, but first the OCD Foundation

> website has lots of information about treatment. It's located at

> http://ocfoundation.org Be sure to look at the section for some

> great books on OCD to read.

>

> And since you said it seemed to be a sudden onset of OCD, look at any

> information on PANDAS OCD at the above site. With PANDAS, that is

> where the child has recently been sick with strep throat and began to

> have OCD. I think strep is the most common cause, maybe not the

> only. PANDAS stands for " Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric

> Disorders Associated with Streptococcal Infections. " There is also

> PITANDS. Here's some info on it:

> http://www.tourettesyndrome.net/pandas_overview.htm

> (the above site covers lots of conditions, don't let the tourette

> syndrome name throw you off)

>

> My son's OCD seemed to be abrupt also, but I haven't been able to pin

> it to the PANDAS type. Howver, growing up he did have a few minor

> OCD behaviors, no huge deal or problem. Suddenly at age 11, it was

> 24/7 OCD, compulsions everywhere!

>

> Another good site for information is:

> http://www.homestead.com/westsuffolkpsych/index.html

> Scroll down the page to the " Articles " and click on it.

>

> Finding a psychologist or therapist experienced in working with OCD

> or even " kids " with OCD has been difficult for some parents. Make

> sure you read on the above sites about the therapy (CBT and ERP) that

> should be done. It varies among people, but it can take up to 8 or

> even 12 weeks for the medication to really begin to kick in. Some

> people need that help before therapy can be beneficial if their

> anxiety level is still extremely high with the OCD.

>

> My son has the " something bad will happen to me " and has to get

> a " just right " feeling with his OCD. He had lots of touching

> compulsions and some repetitive things, some mental ones too I

> think. At any rate, he is MUCH better and OCD has taken to the

> background in his and our lives. Your son will reach this point too,

> I'm sure!!!

>

> This is a great group, feel free to ask questions, read our FILES

> section for information and vent on any bad days your family/son is

> having!

>

>

> single mom, 3 sons

> , 16, with OCD, dysgraphia and Aspergers

>

>

>

> >

> > Last month my son just woke up one morning and was repeating things

> > and hiding in closets and under bed's and behind the shower

> curtains

> > and I was told he has OCD. I need any advice from any other parents

> > out there to see what steps were taken . The Doctor keeps saying we

> > will get the old Tyler back but I am not sure and want to do

> > whatever possible to have it happen. We have started meds and our

> > seeing a child psychologist but I am not sure if we are seeing any

> > progress. Desperate for hope and advice.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Our list archives, bookmarks, files, and chat feature may be accessed

> at: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group// .

> Our list advisors are Gail B. , Ed.D., Tamar Chansky, Ph.D.(

> http://www.worrywisekids.org ), Dan Geller, M.D.,Aureen Pinto Wagner,

> Ph.D., ( http://www.lighthouse-press.com ). Our list moderators are

> Birkhan, Castle, Fowler, Kathy Hammes, Joye,

> Kathy Mac, Gail Pesses, and Kathy . Subscription

> issues or suggestions may be addressed to Louis Harkins, list owner,

> at louisharkins@... , louisharkins@... ,

> louisharkins@... .

>

>

>

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From: Dennis Ring

To:

Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 10:24 PM

Subject: Re: need advice

That's how old my dd was when I realized she had ocd this past December -- 8

almost 9. She was incredibly upset thinking she was going crazy. I spent

countless hours researching online -- which I'm sure is what you did too. On

one site, someone was highly recommending the book: " Freeing your Child from

OCD " by Tamar Chansky. I went out and bought it and found it very helpful. It

explains ocd to you, then has sections that give you actual words to say to your

child to explain it to them. Pictures too. This really helped my dd. First

of all, she realized she wasn't going crazy and she wasn't alone. I forget now

how many children in U.S. have ocd, but it's a big enough number that she was

impressed. Understanding what it was gave her power. She was able to boss

back the ocd in many instances. The book explains how to do that; explains cbt

and erp. It may take you a while to find a good therapist. I was very very

lucky and found one quickly, but still we had to wait almost 2 months for the

first appointment. Seemed like an eternity to me. The book helped dd to get a

handle on the ocd while waiting for the therapist.

Mo

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From: Dennis Ring

To:

Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 10:24 PM

Subject: Re: need advice

That's how old my dd was when I realized she had ocd this past December -- 8

almost 9. She was incredibly upset thinking she was going crazy. I spent

countless hours researching online -- which I'm sure is what you did too. On

one site, someone was highly recommending the book: " Freeing your Child from

OCD " by Tamar Chansky. I went out and bought it and found it very helpful. It

explains ocd to you, then has sections that give you actual words to say to your

child to explain it to them. Pictures too. This really helped my dd. First

of all, she realized she wasn't going crazy and she wasn't alone. I forget now

how many children in U.S. have ocd, but it's a big enough number that she was

impressed. Understanding what it was gave her power. She was able to boss

back the ocd in many instances. The book explains how to do that; explains cbt

and erp. It may take you a while to find a good therapist. I was very very

lucky and found one quickly, but still we had to wait almost 2 months for the

first appointment. Seemed like an eternity to me. The book helped dd to get a

handle on the ocd while waiting for the therapist.

Mo

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Hi there, just a quick note that strep can infect other body parts, not just

the throat. (Other sites: sinus, ear, rectum, skin, etc.) You might also

want the blood test, if his strep titers are sky high it would indicate that

his sudden-onset OCD is due to a strep infection. It is the high

circulating antibodies to strep that cause the symptoms, not the strep germ

itself, so many times PANDAS kids have abrupt onsets *after* the strep

infection is cleared, *while* they have high circulating strep antibodies.

Kathy R. in Indiana

----- Original Message -----

From: " Dennis Ring " <dennis_rng@...

> That is initially what they thought that it was caused from untreated

> strep but the test came back negative so now I will just be patient that I

> am asking for answers so soon and be patient for the medicine to work and

> hopefully he will strt to open up to the psychologist. Thanks for

> responding

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Hi there, just a quick note that strep can infect other body parts, not just

the throat. (Other sites: sinus, ear, rectum, skin, etc.) You might also

want the blood test, if his strep titers are sky high it would indicate that

his sudden-onset OCD is due to a strep infection. It is the high

circulating antibodies to strep that cause the symptoms, not the strep germ

itself, so many times PANDAS kids have abrupt onsets *after* the strep

infection is cleared, *while* they have high circulating strep antibodies.

Kathy R. in Indiana

----- Original Message -----

From: " Dennis Ring " <dennis_rng@...

> That is initially what they thought that it was caused from untreated

> strep but the test came back negative so now I will just be patient that I

> am asking for answers so soon and be patient for the medicine to work and

> hopefully he will strt to open up to the psychologist. Thanks for

> responding

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Guest guest

Hi there, just a quick note that strep can infect other body parts, not just

the throat. (Other sites: sinus, ear, rectum, skin, etc.) You might also

want the blood test, if his strep titers are sky high it would indicate that

his sudden-onset OCD is due to a strep infection. It is the high

circulating antibodies to strep that cause the symptoms, not the strep germ

itself, so many times PANDAS kids have abrupt onsets *after* the strep

infection is cleared, *while* they have high circulating strep antibodies.

Kathy R. in Indiana

----- Original Message -----

From: " Dennis Ring " <dennis_rng@...

> That is initially what they thought that it was caused from untreated

> strep but the test came back negative so now I will just be patient that I

> am asking for answers so soon and be patient for the medicine to work and

> hopefully he will strt to open up to the psychologist. Thanks for

> responding

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Hi there, my child also had the literal, overnight onset, her " anniversary

date " is Dec. 8. See comments at *****

> Thanks for responding I needed an email from someone like you. He's not

> the same boy and I miss him so much!

*****I remember wanting to peel back the OCD, just connect or visit with my

" real " little girl and see that she was alright...

> He has started to get in troube in school. The teachers say that he

thinks the rules do not apply to him anymore. Did your son ever take prozac?

That is what my son is on

*****Prozac can be disinhibiting as a side effect, you saying the teachers

think he does not think the rules apply to him anymore made me think he may

be experiencing this side effect. Many times side effects wane over time,

sometimes not, there isn't any way to know in advance unfortunately. I

suggest you or his doctor speak with the school and his teachers, they

should cut him slack while he is being titered up on medications. If he

wasn't a troublemaker before, it's very unlikely that he would suddenly

start, much more likely this is a med side effect.

> and is really not getting anything out of his psychology appointments he

> just seems to clam up and not talk at all.

*****Is Ty getting Cognitive Behavior Therapy with Exposure and Response

Prevention? This is the only type of therapy that reduces and eliminates

OCD symptoms plus gives kids " tools " to handle future Os and Cs. A good,

experienced child therapist will expect a child with OCD will not be eager

to chat about it, and so have tricks up his sleeve to engage the child in

therapy.

> Ty never slept with the bedroom door closed and now he does and does not

> want the night light either. He now likes diet Coke vs rootbeer or orange

> soda. He doen't care if we do anything to entertain him. I was thinking I

> should switch to a need med. But from what I have been reading it is going

> to take time to see any improvements.

*****He is probably having fears and worries, night time seems to really

kick up the OCD in our kids. Any of these things may be obsessions or

compulsions, especially if he gets upset/angry or very anxious if they are

wrong somehow--wrong soda, etc. It does take quite awhile to know if a

certain SSRI is going to be helpful, and I know from experience that these

are among the longest weeks we have to endure.

> He has the word " Maybe " stuck in his head and really doesn't ever say yes

> or no.

*****OCD is nicknamed " the doubting disease " due to this common symptom of

being unable to be sure about things. As soon as he says " yes " OCD starts

in with " Are you sure, how can you be absolutely sure??? " Lots of kids

resort to being vague, using disclaimers ( " At least, I *think* that's what

happened " ), or saying " maybe " in order to avoid this trap.

> This all started January 7th.

*****PANDAS or I'll eat my hat LOL. Your son's story sounds just like my

little girl's. The ability to state what day OCD/tics started is one of the

big hints that this is PANDAS OCD.

> Are you suppose to ask if they want to play hide and seek when they start

> to hide?

*****Though he is probably anxious or fearful when he hides, actually this

would be a good response. Many of us have noticed that a light-hearted or

humorous comment can take some of the deathly-serious weight out of OCD.

My daughter was four, about to turn five, when she had her onset. She's now

11, long stabilized on an SSRI and the veteran of several months of CBT/ERP.

She's happy and herself again, makes good grades and enjoys school and

friends, many other activities, and OCD is more a nuisance to her than the

huge, upsetting burden it was to begin with. Your boy will get there too,

(((hugs))) I am so sorry that it is so hard in the beginning, but he is on

his way and his symptoms will begin to improve :-)

Take care,

Kathy R. in Indiana

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Guest guest

Hi there, my child also had the literal, overnight onset, her " anniversary

date " is Dec. 8. See comments at *****

> Thanks for responding I needed an email from someone like you. He's not

> the same boy and I miss him so much!

*****I remember wanting to peel back the OCD, just connect or visit with my

" real " little girl and see that she was alright...

> He has started to get in troube in school. The teachers say that he

thinks the rules do not apply to him anymore. Did your son ever take prozac?

That is what my son is on

*****Prozac can be disinhibiting as a side effect, you saying the teachers

think he does not think the rules apply to him anymore made me think he may

be experiencing this side effect. Many times side effects wane over time,

sometimes not, there isn't any way to know in advance unfortunately. I

suggest you or his doctor speak with the school and his teachers, they

should cut him slack while he is being titered up on medications. If he

wasn't a troublemaker before, it's very unlikely that he would suddenly

start, much more likely this is a med side effect.

> and is really not getting anything out of his psychology appointments he

> just seems to clam up and not talk at all.

*****Is Ty getting Cognitive Behavior Therapy with Exposure and Response

Prevention? This is the only type of therapy that reduces and eliminates

OCD symptoms plus gives kids " tools " to handle future Os and Cs. A good,

experienced child therapist will expect a child with OCD will not be eager

to chat about it, and so have tricks up his sleeve to engage the child in

therapy.

> Ty never slept with the bedroom door closed and now he does and does not

> want the night light either. He now likes diet Coke vs rootbeer or orange

> soda. He doen't care if we do anything to entertain him. I was thinking I

> should switch to a need med. But from what I have been reading it is going

> to take time to see any improvements.

*****He is probably having fears and worries, night time seems to really

kick up the OCD in our kids. Any of these things may be obsessions or

compulsions, especially if he gets upset/angry or very anxious if they are

wrong somehow--wrong soda, etc. It does take quite awhile to know if a

certain SSRI is going to be helpful, and I know from experience that these

are among the longest weeks we have to endure.

> He has the word " Maybe " stuck in his head and really doesn't ever say yes

> or no.

*****OCD is nicknamed " the doubting disease " due to this common symptom of

being unable to be sure about things. As soon as he says " yes " OCD starts

in with " Are you sure, how can you be absolutely sure??? " Lots of kids

resort to being vague, using disclaimers ( " At least, I *think* that's what

happened " ), or saying " maybe " in order to avoid this trap.

> This all started January 7th.

*****PANDAS or I'll eat my hat LOL. Your son's story sounds just like my

little girl's. The ability to state what day OCD/tics started is one of the

big hints that this is PANDAS OCD.

> Are you suppose to ask if they want to play hide and seek when they start

> to hide?

*****Though he is probably anxious or fearful when he hides, actually this

would be a good response. Many of us have noticed that a light-hearted or

humorous comment can take some of the deathly-serious weight out of OCD.

My daughter was four, about to turn five, when she had her onset. She's now

11, long stabilized on an SSRI and the veteran of several months of CBT/ERP.

She's happy and herself again, makes good grades and enjoys school and

friends, many other activities, and OCD is more a nuisance to her than the

huge, upsetting burden it was to begin with. Your boy will get there too,

(((hugs))) I am so sorry that it is so hard in the beginning, but he is on

his way and his symptoms will begin to improve :-)

Take care,

Kathy R. in Indiana

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Guest guest

Hi there, my child also had the literal, overnight onset, her " anniversary

date " is Dec. 8. See comments at *****

> Thanks for responding I needed an email from someone like you. He's not

> the same boy and I miss him so much!

*****I remember wanting to peel back the OCD, just connect or visit with my

" real " little girl and see that she was alright...

> He has started to get in troube in school. The teachers say that he

thinks the rules do not apply to him anymore. Did your son ever take prozac?

That is what my son is on

*****Prozac can be disinhibiting as a side effect, you saying the teachers

think he does not think the rules apply to him anymore made me think he may

be experiencing this side effect. Many times side effects wane over time,

sometimes not, there isn't any way to know in advance unfortunately. I

suggest you or his doctor speak with the school and his teachers, they

should cut him slack while he is being titered up on medications. If he

wasn't a troublemaker before, it's very unlikely that he would suddenly

start, much more likely this is a med side effect.

> and is really not getting anything out of his psychology appointments he

> just seems to clam up and not talk at all.

*****Is Ty getting Cognitive Behavior Therapy with Exposure and Response

Prevention? This is the only type of therapy that reduces and eliminates

OCD symptoms plus gives kids " tools " to handle future Os and Cs. A good,

experienced child therapist will expect a child with OCD will not be eager

to chat about it, and so have tricks up his sleeve to engage the child in

therapy.

> Ty never slept with the bedroom door closed and now he does and does not

> want the night light either. He now likes diet Coke vs rootbeer or orange

> soda. He doen't care if we do anything to entertain him. I was thinking I

> should switch to a need med. But from what I have been reading it is going

> to take time to see any improvements.

*****He is probably having fears and worries, night time seems to really

kick up the OCD in our kids. Any of these things may be obsessions or

compulsions, especially if he gets upset/angry or very anxious if they are

wrong somehow--wrong soda, etc. It does take quite awhile to know if a

certain SSRI is going to be helpful, and I know from experience that these

are among the longest weeks we have to endure.

> He has the word " Maybe " stuck in his head and really doesn't ever say yes

> or no.

*****OCD is nicknamed " the doubting disease " due to this common symptom of

being unable to be sure about things. As soon as he says " yes " OCD starts

in with " Are you sure, how can you be absolutely sure??? " Lots of kids

resort to being vague, using disclaimers ( " At least, I *think* that's what

happened " ), or saying " maybe " in order to avoid this trap.

> This all started January 7th.

*****PANDAS or I'll eat my hat LOL. Your son's story sounds just like my

little girl's. The ability to state what day OCD/tics started is one of the

big hints that this is PANDAS OCD.

> Are you suppose to ask if they want to play hide and seek when they start

> to hide?

*****Though he is probably anxious or fearful when he hides, actually this

would be a good response. Many of us have noticed that a light-hearted or

humorous comment can take some of the deathly-serious weight out of OCD.

My daughter was four, about to turn five, when she had her onset. She's now

11, long stabilized on an SSRI and the veteran of several months of CBT/ERP.

She's happy and herself again, makes good grades and enjoys school and

friends, many other activities, and OCD is more a nuisance to her than the

huge, upsetting burden it was to begin with. Your boy will get there too,

(((hugs))) I am so sorry that it is so hard in the beginning, but he is on

his way and his symptoms will begin to improve :-)

Take care,

Kathy R. in Indiana

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yes, exactly, it is autoimmune. The damage remains even after the

antibodies subside. So a negative test does not negate an infectious

etiology. Pam Weintraub

Kathy wrote on 2/13/2005, 11:29 PM:

>

> Hi there, just a quick note that strep can infect other body parts,

> not just

> the throat. (Other sites: sinus, ear, rectum, skin, etc.) You might

> also

> want the blood test, if his strep titers are sky high it would

> indicate that

> his sudden-onset OCD is due to a strep infection. It is the high

> circulating antibodies to strep that cause the symptoms, not the strep

> germ

> itself, so many times PANDAS kids have abrupt onsets *after* the strep

> infection is cleared, *while* they have high circulating strep

> antibodies.

>

> Kathy R. in Indiana

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we had suddent onset ocd following on the heels of Lyme disease and

bartonella. age 13

Kathy wrote on 2/13/2005, 11:51 PM:

>

> Hi there, my child also had the literal, overnight onset, her

> " anniversary

> date " is Dec. 8. See comments at *****

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Pam, I thought it was not yet known whether damage persists once strep

titers fall in PANDAS, this process has been characterized in papers as an

" irritation " or " assault " on the basal ganglia. Some kid's symptoms tail

off to nothing between exacerbations caused by the infection/immune response

cycle, which holds out hope that the process does not cause permanent

damage, at least not early on. I'm speaking here specifically of strep and

PANDAS, I've only begun reading through the material you posted earlier and

so know very little about Lyme and some of the other pathogens you have

mentioned caused your son's OCD

It's true a neg. test does not mean no chance that OCD was kicked off by a

strep infection. I don't think there's any way to rule out...it's just that

one showing elevated strep titers at the same point in time as abrupt onset

or worsening of OCD/tics, is considered suggestive.

I shouldn't have written in my initial post, that sky-high antibody titers

would indicate strep etiology. I should have said suggest.

Kathy R. in Indiana

----- Original Message -----

From: " Pamela Weintraub " <PWeintraub@...

> yes, exactly, it is autoimmune. The damage remains even after the

> antibodies subside. So a negative test does not negate an infectious

> etiology. Pam Weintraub

>

> Kathy wrote on 2/13/2005, 11:29 PM:

>

> >

> > Hi there, just a quick note that strep can infect other body parts,

> > not just

> > the throat. (Other sites: sinus, ear, rectum, skin, etc.) You might

> > also

> > want the blood test, if his strep titers are sky high it would

> > indicate that

> > his sudden-onset OCD is due to a strep infection. It is the high

> > circulating antibodies to strep that cause the symptoms, not the strep

> > germ

> > itself, so many times PANDAS kids have abrupt onsets *after* the strep

> > infection is cleared, *while* they have high circulating strep

> > antibodies.

> >

> > Kathy R. in Indiana

>

>

>

>

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Guest guest

The last thing I heard a while back was that they were more strongly

believing that the damage will " eventually " become permanent. They guy

we were working with at the NIH, told me (unofficially) that about 90%

of the kids had some type of permanent problem 2 years later.

(Although it was often mild).

Interestingly enough, I was working on the Baby calendar for our newest

addition, and looking through the other ones for comparison's sake and

I came across something that just struck me. For the first several

months of my son's life, he was really an easy going baby and a great

sleeper.

Then, I remember it was almost like a switch went off that around 9-10

months, he absolutely would not sleep in his room any more. He howled

and cried for hours, if we let him. (This after being one that you

could lay down and he'd be happy and play for a few minutes and then

out like a light). We spent a few weeks, maybe even months trying

everything to get him to sleep in his room.

Well, I was looking in his baby book, and isn't it an odd enough

coincidence that this all took place two weeks after a major strep

infection!! I guess we'll never know, but I wonder how many of his

childhood " incidents " were initial PANDAS attacks that went

unrecognized.

> I thought it was not yet known whether damage persists once strep

> titers fall in PANDAS, this process has been characterized in papers

> as an

> " irritation " or " assault " on the basal ganglia.  Some kid's symptoms

> tail

> off to nothing between exacerbations caused by the infection/immune

> response

> cycle, which holds out hope that the process does not cause permanent

> damage, at least not early on.  I'm speaking here specifically of

> strep and

> PANDAS, I've only begun reading through the material you posted

> earlier and

> so know very little about Lyme and some of the other pathogens you

> have

> mentioned caused your son's OCD

>

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yes, I think you are saying it correctly --my greater knowledge is in

the Lyme area, where a very small bit of infection can cause an outsized

immune response. The immune response works across the spectrum of a

number of genetic (and associated physiologic) variables, and depending

upon where one falls on the spectrum, you might have a true autoimmune

response (ie infection is no longer required) or you might flare with

flaring of the infection, even small amounts of infection.

Let's face it, the immune response is not going to cycle in and out

unless you have active chronic persistent infection, even if at very low

level, driving it. In Lyme this is often the case,necessitating

long-term treatment -though this last statement is controversial. The

whole notion of chronic persistent infection is one of those areas in

medicine that has provoked warfare amongst professionals.

If you want to know more about Lyme email me privately and I can be of help.

Pam

Kathy wrote on 2/14/2005, 12:18 AM:

>

> Pam, I thought it was not yet known whether damage persists once strep

> titers fall in PANDAS, this process has been characterized in papers

> as an

> " irritation " or " assault " on the basal ganglia. Some kid's symptoms tail

> off to nothing between exacerbations caused by the infection/immune

> response

> cycle, which holds out hope that the process does not cause permanent

> damage, at least not early on. I'm speaking here specifically of

> strep and

> PANDAS, I've only begun reading through the material you posted

> earlier and

> so know very little about Lyme and some of the other pathogens you have

> mentioned caused your son's OCD

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