Re: Re: oxypowder/heavy metals/and some comments about diet

[Guest guest]

Hi Bonnie!! That is a such a surprise to hear that a doc thinks that the vacs possibly have something to do with your daughter!!!!! Usually they dont want nothing to do with the vac subject!! Sounds like a good pediatrician!! I Know vacs triggered my sons gi issues. Started with the first DTaP shot and got worse after each round and then the mmr did him in!! (went back and compared shot records with medical records). I came accross info that garlic is a natural chelator for removing metals!! I was so happy to see that due to I am a big fan on garlic and its awesome healing properties!! Also really helps with the constipation!! I didnt see any results with the fiber and my son. Now this is not without saying it has worked really well for others!! I truely think my sons constipation problems are due to lack of muscle/nerve affects. I think his was damaged from the mmr shot(gastro said he thinks this is possible)(nuero said they become very sensitive, this would be the

nerve damage, induced sensory issues). Beings the muscle was damaged the stool cannot move(little contractions) and therefor sits and hardens(some think this is withholding from the child and it is not, some do withhold though). The fiber made me nervous enough to use very little due to the bulking affects it has in the bowels. My sons stools at this point has to be very loose(not watery) to be able to move. This is also gastro thought on muscle damage. I can say it seems to be improving, so this tells me that with time (supplementing with natural healers also) the muscles can repair themselves. Thank you for the info on flower essence, gonna check into it. Also, we have had really good results with aloe vera juice(whole form), the george's is to proccessed and doesnt seem to have much affect on the stool movements, did seem to help with reflux pain and etc. I would be very leary of supplementing with vit A. It can be highly toxic!! Also some good info

that it also may have some connection with why america has such a high osteoprosis(sp)(bone loss) problem! Other countries dont have this problem! Doctors recommend calcium(high doses are toxic) like it is candy but never mention the need to add magnesium. This also has a lot to do with the bone issues!! 50% percent of magnesium is in the bones, calcium can deplete it and vice versa! I agree with you that all natural/organic is the only way!! Proccessed of anything is so bad on our bodies. We are not fortunate to have organic wear we live, but try to avoid the proccessed and add natural supplements to help! I have seen such huge improvements with my son, still has a long way to go, but we have hope now!! He was so disabled with medical problems(I feel induced from vacs and then further problems with the chemicals all around ie. food, etc) That is good that you find better results with the white breads/sugars, but be leary of the sugars, when sugar is consumed, the

immune systom is lowered for several hours and then we are vulnerable to viruses etc. Try the garlic for the natural chelating!! Thanks for the info on the essence. Jennie wrote: Hi ,Just wondering...how are you removing those heavy metals? And how did you find out they were there to begin with? I have been wondering about heavy metals with my 3.5-year-old...her pediatrician suspects that her constipation was triggered by her vaccinations (he's

not the pediatrician who did the vaccinations). Also, I have a thought about diet I thought I'd share with the list...maybe I've mentioned this before, but we have had better luck with reducing fiber than with increasing it. My DD and I are vegetarians and she has always had tons of fiber in her diet...apparently it was too much for her at her age. By reducing insoluble fiber, and for example, giving her white bread (we're using a good quality white bread made by Natural Ovens of Manitowoc) instead of whole grain bread, we've gotten her to the point where she has three bowel movements a week, instead of one every ten days or so... We also seem to see improvement if she has no vitamin supplements at all. At first we thought the problem was the iron in her multivitamin. Then I found that even the all-natural fruit/veg vitamins I was giving her (basically just vitamins A and C) seem to bind her up a bit. I am still giving her primadophilus and papaya

enzymes, though. I think the problem with the vitamin supplements might be that they're such a highly processed food. I'm starting to think that processed foods are particularly bad, even when they have all-natural ingredients. My DD really seems to do better with homemade stuff--even when the homemade stuff is cookies made with white flour and sugar! Another bizarre thing: we've been allowing her some cheese lately. Previously we banned all dairy products. But adding a bit of cheese hasn't made her constipation worse...at least not so far. (It doesn't make it better, either--just seems to be unrelated.) I don't know what to conclude from any of this. Maybe it just means that in my DD's case, her constipation is not diet-related. At one point, I read an article in a medical journal that concluded that chronic, functional constipation in children is usually not diet-related. But the article proceeded to recommend that doctors push fiber even though

the study they were doing had shown that fiber didn't help. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll go back and see if I can find the article again. Finally. This will seem really odd, I know. We've been experimenting with giving my DD some flower essences to help with the emotional turmoil of going through all this. I really encourage all of you to look into this. I don't fully understand how they work, and some of the explanations I've read sound really flaky. But: one day after I started giving her flower essences, she stopped having nightmares. The next day she stopped having separation problems at school. And the next day she stopped wearing diapers and went back to wearing underwear and using the potty, even for bowel movements. It's hard to recommend a particular flower essence, because the appropriate one would depend on the person and the situation. For my daughter, Perelandra's Sweet Pea essence and Bach's Aspen, both of which are supposed to reduce

irrational fears, seem to help quite a bit. She had a fear of wearing underwear, which is pretty irrational! If there's one thing I'm sure of, it's that the underwear wasn't making her constipated! Anyway. I think offering some kind of emotional support or stress relief (even if it's not flower essences) is helpful, because constipation and its related woes can be very upsetting for kids. Sorry for the long post! I hope some of this is helpful to someone...Bonnie __________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I'm interested in reading that article. My daughter's pediatritian said that constipation is caused by not eating properly and if she ate properly, she would not have any problems. I seriously doubt what he is saying because she started with this problem at around four months old when I switched from breastmilk to formula (I stupidly listened to my own doc who said I had to stop because of my bloodpressure meds - switched docs for the next child and breastfed her). She also eats very, very healthy - whole grains, lots of water, fruits, and lots of veggies.

I never thought about vaccinations possibly causing this. Is there a test to see if it is heavy metals? Are there tests to see if there is indeed muscle/ nerve damage? I really need to figure out what is causing this constipation. I feel like my doc is just treating the symptoms and not bothering to figure out the cause. I'd like her to see a gastrointerologist but I'm not sure the pediatritian would recommend her to one. He's convinced it's just because she's a toddler and in his eyes toddlers don't eat well.

I'm just soooo very frustrated and want so badly to figure it all out and help her.

Re: oxypowder/heavy metals/and some comments about diet

Hi ,Just wondering...how are you removing those heavy metals? And how did you find out they were there to begin with? I have been wondering about heavy metals with my 3.5-year-old...her pediatrician suspects that her constipation was triggered by her vaccinations (he's not the pediatrician who did the vaccinations). Also, I have a thought about diet I thought I'd share with the list...maybe I've mentioned this before, but we have had better luck with reducing fiber than with increasing it. My DD and I are vegetarians and she has always had tons of fiber in her diet...apparently it was too much for her at her age. By reducing insoluble fiber, and for example, giving her white bread (we're using a good quality white bread made by Natural Ovens of Manitowoc) instead of whole grain bread, we've gotten her to the point where she has three bowel movements a week, instead of one every ten days or so... We also seem to see improvement if she has no vitamin supplements at all. At first we thought the problem was the iron in her multivitamin. Then I found that even the all-natural fruit/veg vitamins I was giving her (basically just vitamins A and C) seem to bind her up a bit. I am still giving her primadophilus and papaya enzymes, though. I think the problem with the vitamin supplements might be that they're such a highly processed food. I'm starting to think that processed foods are particularly bad, even when they have all-natural ingredients. My DD really seems to do better with homemade stuff--even when the homemade stuff is cookies made with white flour and sugar! Another bizarre thing: we've been allowing her some cheese lately. Previously we banned all dairy products. But adding a bit of cheese hasn't made her constipation worse...at least not so far. (It doesn't make it better, either--just seems to be unrelated.) I don't know what to conclude from any of this. Maybe it just means that in my DD's case, her constipation is not diet-related. At one point, I read an article in a medical journal that concluded that chronic, functional constipation in children is usually not diet-related. But the article proceeded to recommend that doctors push fiber even though the study they were doing had shown that fiber didn't help. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll go back and see if I can find the article again. Finally. This will seem really odd, I know. We've been experimenting with giving my DD some flower essences to help with the emotional turmoil of going through all this. I really encourage all of you to look into this. I don't fully understand how they work, and some of the explanations I've read sound really flaky. But: one day after I started giving her flower essences, she stopped having nightmares. The next day she stopped having separation problems at school. And the next day she stopped wearing diapers and went back to wearing underwear and using the potty, even for bowel movements. It's hard to recommend a particular flower essence, because the appropriate one would depend on the person and the situation. For my daughter, Perelandra's Sweet Pea essence and Bach's Aspen, both of which are supposed to reduce irrational fears, seem to help quite a bit. She had a fear of wearing underwear, which is pretty irrational! If there's one thing I'm sure of, it's that the underwear wasn't making her constipated! Anyway. I think offering some kind of emotional support or stress relief (even if it's not flower essences) is helpful, because constipation and its related woes can be very upsetting for kids. Sorry for the long post! I hope some of this is helpful to someone...Bonnie

[Guest guest]

I feel sure my daughter has nerve issues due to muscle damage.

( her first diagnosis was hypotonia as well as being vax damaged)

Can Oxypowder work on these types of kids? Miralax seems like

the only thing that works. We are up to 5 pills of Oxypower and I'm

still waiting for it to start working.

Kathy

Re: Re: oxypowder/heavy metals/and some comments about diet

Hi Bonnie!! That is a such a surprise to hear that a doc thinks that the vacs possibly have something to do with your daughter!!!!! Usually they dont want nothing to do with the vac subject!! Sounds like a good pediatrician!! I Know vacs triggered my sons gi issues. Started with the first DTaP shot and got worse after each round and then the mmr did him in!! (went back and compared shot records with medical records). I came accross info that garlic is a natural chelator for removing metals!! I was so happy to see that due to I am a big fan on garlic and its awesome healing properties!! Also really helps with the constipation!! I didnt see any results with the fiber and my son. Now this is not without saying it has worked really well for others!! I truely think my sons constipation problems are due to lack of muscle/nerve affects. I think his was damaged from the mmr shot(gastro said he thinks this is possible)(nuero said they become very sensitive, this would be the nerve damage, induced sensory issues). Beings the muscle was damaged the stool cannot move(little contractions) and therefor sits and hardens(some think this is withholding from the child and it is not, some do withhold though). The fiber made me nervous enough to use very little due to the bulking affects it has in the bowels. My sons stools at this point has to be very loose(not watery) to be able to move. This is also gastro thought on muscle damage. I can say it seems to be improving, so this tells me that with time (supplementing with natural healers also) the muscles can repair themselves.

Thank you for the info on flower essence, gonna check into it. Also, we have had really good results with aloe vera juice(whole form), the george's is to proccessed and doesnt seem to have much affect on the stool movements, did seem to help with reflux pain and etc. I would be very leary of supplementing with vit A. It can be highly toxic!! Also some good info that it also may have some connection with why america has such a high osteoprosis(sp)(bone loss) problem! Other countries dont have this problem! Doctors recommend calcium(high doses are toxic) like it is candy but never mention the need to add magnesium. This also has a lot to do with the bone issues!! 50% percent of magnesium is in the bones, calcium can deplete it and vice versa! I agree with you that all natural/organic is the only way!! Proccessed of anything is so bad on our bodies. We are not fortunate to have organic wear we live, but try to avoid the proccessed and add natural supplements to help! I have seen such huge improvements with my son, still has a long way to go, but we have hope now!! He was so disabled with medical problems(I feel induced from vacs and then further problems with the chemicals all around ie. food, etc) That is good that you find better results with the white breads/sugars, but be leary of the sugars, when sugar is consumed, the immune systom is lowered for several hours and then we are vulnerable to viruses etc. Try the garlic for the natural chelating!! Thanks for the info on the essence. Jennie<><Bonnie Juettner <bjuettnergmail> wrote:

Hi ,Just wondering...how are you removing those heavy metals? And how did you find out they were there to begin with? I have been wondering about heavy metals with my 3.5-year-old...her pediatrician suspects that her constipation was triggered by her vaccinations (he's not the pediatrician who did the vaccinations). Also, I have a thought about diet I thought I'd share with the list...maybe I've mentioned this before, but we have had better luck with reducing fiber than with increasing it. My DD and I are vegetarians and she has always had tons of fiber in her diet...apparently it was too much for her at her age. By reducing insoluble fiber, and for example, giving her white bread (we're using a good quality white bread made by Natural Ovens of Manitowoc) instead of whole grain bread, we've gotten her to the point where she has three bowel movements a week, instead of one every ten days or so... We also seem to see improvement if she has no vitamin supplements at all. At first we thought the problem was the iron in her multivitamin. Then I found that even the all-natural fruit/veg vitamins I was giving her (basically just vitamins A and C) seem to bind her up a bit. I am still giving her primadophilus and papaya enzymes, though. I think the problem with the vitamin supplements might be that they're such a highly processed food. I'm starting to think that processed foods are particularly bad, even when they have all-natural ingredients. My DD really seems to do better with homemade stuff--even when the homemade stuff is cookies made with white flour and sugar! Another bizarre thing: we've been allowing her some cheese lately. Previously we banned all dairy products. But adding a bit of cheese hasn't made her constipation worse...at least not so far. (It doesn't make it better, either--just seems to be unrelated.) I don't know what to conclude from any of this. Maybe it just means that in my DD's case, her constipation is not diet-related. At one point, I read an article in a medical journal that concluded that chronic, functional constipation in children is usually not diet-related. But the article proceeded to recommend that doctors push fiber even though the study they were doing had shown that fiber didn't help. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll go back and see if I can find the article again. Finally. This will seem really odd, I know. We've been experimenting with giving my DD some flower essences to help with the emotional turmoil of going through all this. I really encourage all of you to look into this. I don't fully understand how they work, and some of the explanations I've read sound really flaky. But: one day after I started giving her flower essences, she stopped having nightmares. The next day she stopped having separation problems at school. And the next day she stopped wearing diapers and went back to wearing underwear and using the potty, even for bowel movements. It's hard to recommend a particular flower essence, because the appropriate one would depend on the person and the situation. For my daughter, Perelandra's Sweet Pea essence and Bach's Aspen, both of which are supposed to reduce irrational fears, seem to help quite a bit. She had a fear of wearing underwear, which is pretty irrational! If there's one thing I'm sure of, it's that the underwear wasn't making her constipated! Anyway. I think offering some kind of emotional support or stress relief (even if it's not flower essences) is helpful, because constipation and its related woes can be very upsetting for kids. Sorry for the long post! I hope some of this is helpful to someone...Bonnie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Make a list of questions. Interview 3 more peds. Then select your child's next doctor.If you are not happy with the Ped and the ped is not offering good advice to help your child or to help you better parent the child then it's time to go. You'll much much much happier! And your child will be healthier! I'm interested in reading that article.  My daughter's pediatritian said that constipation is caused by not eating properly and if she ate properly, she would not have any problems.  I seriously doubt what he is saying because she started with this problem at around four months old when I switched from breastmilk to formula (I stupidly listened to my own doc who said I had to stop because of my bloodpressure meds - switched docs for the next child and breastfed her).   She also eats very, very healthy - whole grains, lots of water, fruits, and lots of veggies.   I never thought about vaccinations possibly causing this.  Is there a test to see if it is heavy metals?  Are there tests to see if there is indeed muscle/ nerve damage?  I really need to figure out what is causing this constipation.  I feel like my doc is just treating the symptoms and not bothering to figure out the cause.  I'd like her to see a gastrointerologist but I'm not sure the pediatritian would recommend her to one.  He's convinced it's just because she's a toddler and in his eyes toddlers don't eat well.    I'm just soooo very frustrated and want so badly to figure it all out and help her.  

[Guest guest]

The whole eating properly argument loses its merit when you find out that you've got a neighbor whose kids eat nothing but fast food and they are regular like clockwork, LOL! Just giving that as an example-- I don't know your neighbors, but I do know people whose kids are like this. They eat horribly and they are not constipated. Your daughters ped's statement strikes a chord in me in that this is such a "parent-blame" problem-- they tell us we aren't feeding our kids the right kind of foods, or that we've created power control issues so that our kids are witholding, and so it's always something that the parent is doing wrong, and parents leave their doc offices feeling like it is their fault that their kid is constipated and it's oftentimes not anything related at all! So I'm glad you mentioned that experience because we have a lot of new famlies on board here, who I'm sure feel like this is all their fault and so forth. W __________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Oh Kathy-- your dd is such a tough nut to crack! I would go back down to the three Oxypowder because I would not want her to get too much magnesium. If you have a health food section in the grocery store, or you might even check the regular "tea" aisle, but look for Smooth Move tea--have you ever had her try that before? It may get the contractions going. If all else fails you could certainly keep up the oxypowder but try stopping the miralax to see if that has done what it had done to Ethan, which seemed to be affected his nerves. He was a kid who COULD go bm...the whole time on lactulose, he was successful, and when we weaned off by giving him diced fruit cups daily, he was successful. The problem happened when he had to be hospitalized for a blood infection--that's when he became backed up and that's when the miralax was started. and THAT's when he stopped recognizing the urge to empty his bowels about a week or so

into the miralax. I have read from other people on other boards that over time, they found they had to take more and more miralax. The worst case I had read of was a woman who ultimately was drinking a large daily dose, PLUS drinking colyte/golytely on the weekends in order to actually have about one bowel movement a week. Crazy! Something happened to her nerves over time... SOOOOO... if nothing is happening on the five capsules of oxypowder, I'd consider changing the miralax down but also look into smooth move tea if you haven't tried that before. Please keep us posted. If you could only see me crossing my fingers, hoping that something with help her. You've been trying so many things! You're such a dedicated mom! Keep us posted on the whole testosterone issue, too...I find that fascinating that parents who have lowered their kids testosterone into the

normal reference range have found that the stools normalized, through the normal function of the pituitary gland. If you do try that (as you've posted that you got her results back with high testosterone) let us know if that helps! W Hudson wrote: I feel sure my daughter has nerve issues due to muscle damage. ( her first diagnosis was hypotonia as well as being vax

damaged) Can Oxypowder work on these types of kids? Miralax seems like the only thing that works. We are up to 5 pills of Oxypower and I'm still waiting for it to start working. Kathy Re: Re: oxypowder/heavy metals/and some comments about diet Hi Bonnie!! That is a such a surprise to hear that a doc thinks that the vacs possibly have something to do with your daughter!!!!! Usually they dont want nothing to do with the vac subject!! Sounds like a good pediatrician!! I Know vacs triggered my sons gi issues. Started with the first DTaP shot and got worse after each round and then the mmr did him in!! (went back and compared shot records with medical records). I came accross info that garlic is a natural chelator for removing metals!! I was so happy to see that due to I am a big fan on garlic and its awesome healing properties!! Also really helps with the constipation!! I didnt see any results with the fiber and my son. Now this is not without saying it has worked really well for others!! I truely think my sons

constipation problems are due to lack of muscle/nerve affects. I think his was damaged from the mmr shot(gastro said he thinks this is possible)(nuero said they become very sensitive, this would be the nerve damage, induced sensory issues). Beings the muscle was damaged the stool cannot move(little contractions) and therefor sits and hardens(some think this is withholding from the child and it is not, some do withhold though). The fiber made me nervous enough to use very little due to the bulking affects it has in the bowels. My sons stools at this point has to be very loose(not watery) to be able to move. This is also gastro thought on muscle damage. I can say it seems to be improving, so this tells me that with time (supplementing with natural healers also) the muscles can repair themselves. Thank you for the info on flower essence, gonna check into it. Also, we have had really good results with aloe vera juice(whole form), the george's is to

proccessed and doesnt seem to have much affect on the stool movements, did seem to help with reflux pain and etc. I would be very leary of supplementing with vit A. It can be highly toxic!! Also some good info that it also may have some connection with why america has such a high osteoprosis(sp)(bone loss) problem! Other countries dont have this problem! Doctors recommend calcium(high doses are toxic) like it is candy but never mention the need to add magnesium. This also has a lot to do with the bone issues!! 50% percent of magnesium is in the bones, calcium can deplete it and vice versa! I agree with you that all natural/organic is the only way!! Proccessed of anything is so bad on our bodies. We are not fortunate to have organic wear we live, but try to avoid the proccessed and add natural supplements to help! I have seen such huge improvements with my son, still has a long way to go, but we have hope now!! He was so disabled with medical problems(I feel

induced from vacs and then further problems with the chemicals all around ie. food, etc) That is good that you find better results with the white breads/sugars, but be leary of the sugars, when sugar is consumed, the immune systom is lowered for several hours and then we are vulnerable to viruses etc. Try the garlic for the natural chelating!! Thanks for the info on the essence. Jennie<><Bonnie Juettner <bjuettnergmail> wrote: Hi ,Just wondering...how are you removing those heavy metals? And how did you find out they were there to begin with? I have been wondering about heavy metals with my 3.5-year-old...her pediatrician suspects that her constipation was triggered by her vaccinations (he's not the pediatrician who did the vaccinations). Also, I have a thought about

diet I thought I'd share with the list...maybe I've mentioned this before, but we have had better luck with reducing fiber than with increasing it. My DD and I are vegetarians and she has always had tons of fiber in her diet...apparently it was too much for her at her age. By reducing insoluble fiber, and for example, giving her white bread (we're using a good quality white bread made by Natural Ovens of Manitowoc) instead of whole grain bread, we've gotten her to the point where she has three bowel movements a week, instead of one every ten days or so... We also seem to see improvement if she has no vitamin supplements at all. At first we thought the problem was the iron in her multivitamin. Then I found that even the all-natural fruit/veg vitamins I was giving her (basically just vitamins A and C) seem to bind her up a bit. I am still giving her primadophilus and papaya enzymes, though. I think the problem with the vitamin supplements might be that

they're such a highly processed food. I'm starting to think that processed foods are particularly bad, even when they have all-natural ingredients. My DD really seems to do better with homemade stuff--even when the homemade stuff is cookies made with white flour and sugar! Another bizarre thing: we've been allowing her some cheese lately. Previously we banned all dairy products. But adding a bit of cheese hasn't made her constipation worse...at least not so far. (It doesn't make it better, either--just seems to be unrelated.) I don't know what to conclude from any of this. Maybe it just means that in my DD's case, her constipation is not diet-related. At one point, I read an article in a medical journal that concluded that chronic, functional constipation in children is usually not diet-related. But the article proceeded to recommend that doctors push fiber even though the study they were doing had shown that fiber didn't help. If anyone is interested, let

me know and I'll go back and see if I can find the article again. Finally. This will seem really odd, I know. We've been experimenting with giving my DD some flower essences to help with the emotional turmoil of going through all this. I really encourage all of you to look into this. I don't fully understand how they work, and some of the explanations I've read sound really flaky. But: one day after I started giving her flower essences, she stopped having nightmares. The next day she stopped having separation problems at school. And the next day she stopped wearing diapers and went back to wearing underwear and using the potty, even for bowel movements. It's hard to recommend a particular flower essence, because the appropriate one would depend on the person and the situation. For my daughter, Perelandra's Sweet Pea essence and Bach's Aspen, both of which are supposed to reduce irrational fears, seem to help quite a bit. She had a fear of wearing underwear, which

is pretty irrational! If there's one thing I'm sure of, it's that the underwear wasn't making her constipated! Anyway. I think offering some kind of emotional support or stress relief (even if it's not flower essences) is helpful, because constipation and its related woes can be very upsetting for kids. Sorry for the long post! I hope some of this is helpful to someone...Bonnie __________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Perhaps the peds statements are being taken out of context here.

Diet SHOULD be the first place a parent has to start when dealing

with constapation. Then we go into adding " natural methods " such as

the minerals, supplements, fluids, fibers, etc.

Then if that does not work the meds.

But what I've seen and learned it's a whole package. Some children's

bodies need all of the above to work.

It's like cancer. Some folks smoke and eat horribly all their lives

and never die of it. Others eat so healthy and live healthy and are

just infested with cancer.

You can't make the comparison about people. We are all different.

The whole eating properly argument loses its merit when you find out

that you've got a neighbor whose kids eat nothing but fast food and

they are regular like clockwork, LOL! Just giving that as an

example-- I don't know your neighbors, but I do know people whose

kids are like this. They eat horribly and they are not constipated.

Your daughters ped's statement strikes a chord in me in that this is

such a " parent-blame " problem-- they tell us we aren't feeding our

kids the right kind of foods, or that we've created power control

issues so that our kids are witholding, and so it's always something

that the parent is doing wrong, and parents leave their doc offices

feeling like it is their fault that their kid is constipated and it's

oftentimes not anything related at all! So I'm glad you mentioned

that experience because we have a lot of new famlies on board here,

who I'm sure feel like this is all their fault and so forth.

W