Re: arginine

[Guest guest]

L-arginine together with Gingko Biloba may reduce some of the SSRI-induced

sexual side-effects. I for one use it. So it was with some unease that I

read the following article about possible deaths from arginine

supplementation. The people in question are cardiac patients which make them

quite a special subgroup, it´s a fairly small study so it could be a

statistical fluke and it doesn´t state the dose having been used, but I ask

whether it could be a cause for concern for those of us using the substance?

Perhaps it could be a case for being careful not to use a larger dose than

necessary. I take 2,5 mg per day since I started recently, just because that

was recommended on the bottle. How much do people on this list currently

take - what dose have you found to be of use? I recall seeing from 1 mg to 8

mg per day.

Ulf

" Tue Jan 3, 4:03 PM ET

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Heart attack patients should avoid the dietary

supplement L-arginine based on a study that was scuttled after six

volunteers taking the over-the-counter supplement died, researchers said on

Tuesday.

The study of 153 people who had had heart attacks and continued to have

symptoms of heart disease found no benefit from taking the supplement

sometimes advertised as having the potential to reduce vascular stiffness.

L-arginine is also sometimes touted as a treatment for hypertension, angina,

heart failure and sexual dysfunction.

After six months of a planned two-year study, Dr. Schulman of s

Hopkins Medical Institutions in Baltimore concluded that the supplement did

not reduce vascular stiffness, nor did it improve the heart's ability to

pump blood.

" To the contrary, we noted a possible increased risk of death in older

patients after (heart attack) while taking L-arginine compared with those

taking a placebo, leading to the early termination of the study, " Schulman

wrote in the

Journal of the American Medical Association. "

[Guest guest]

This is a surprising result. L-arginine is supposed to reduce blood

pressure by inducing nitric oxide synthesis, and there's quite a bit

of evidence that it does just that. Why it would increase death

rate in heart attack survivors is very unclear. Note that of the 6

deaths, 3 were of unspecified causes. I think there needs to be much

more follow up to determine what's going on.

BTW, dose was 9 grams per day. I presume you mean you're taking 2.5

grams per day, not 2.5 mg?

Vornan

-- In SSRIsex , " Ulf Rasmusson " <ulf.rasmusson@b...>

wrote:

>

> L-arginine together with Gingko Biloba may reduce some of the SSRI-

induced

> sexual side-effects. I for one use it. So it was with some unease

that I

> read the following article about possible deaths from arginine

> supplementation. The people in question are cardiac patients which

make them

> quite a special subgroup, it´s a fairly small study so it could be

a

> statistical fluke and it doesn´t state the dose having been used,

but I ask

> whether it could be a cause for concern for those of us using the

substance?

> Perhaps it could be a case for being careful not to use a larger

dose than

> necessary. I take 2,5 mg per day since I started recently, just

because that

> was recommended on the bottle. How much do people on this list

currently

> take - what dose have you found to be of use? I recall seeing from

1 mg to 8

> mg per day.

>

> Ulf

> " Tue Jan 3, 4:03 PM ET

>

> CHICAGO (Reuters) - Heart attack patients should avoid the dietary

> supplement L-arginine based on a study that was scuttled after six

> volunteers taking the over-the-counter supplement died,

researchers said on

> Tuesday.

>

> The study of 153 people who had had heart attacks and continued to

have

> symptoms of heart disease found no benefit from taking the

supplement

> sometimes advertised as having the potential to reduce vascular

stiffness.

> L-arginine is also sometimes touted as a treatment for

hypertension, angina,

> heart failure and sexual dysfunction.

>

> After six months of a planned two-year study, Dr. Schulman

of s

> Hopkins Medical Institutions in Baltimore concluded that the

supplement did

> not reduce vascular stiffness, nor did it improve the heart's

ability to

> pump blood.

>

> " To the contrary, we noted a possible increased risk of death in

older

> patients after (heart attack) while taking L-arginine compared

with those

> taking a placebo, leading to the early termination of the study, "

Schulman

> wrote in the

>

> Journal of the American Medical Association. "

>

[Guest guest]

Subject: Re: Arginine

This is a surprising result. L-arginine is supposed to reduce blood

pressure by inducing nitric oxide synthesis, and there's quite a bit

of evidence that it does just that. Why it would increase death

rate in heart attack survivors is very unclear. Note that of the 6

deaths, 3 were of unspecified causes. I think there needs to be much

more follow up to determine what's going on.

BTW, dose was 9 grams per day. I presume you mean you're taking 2.5

grams per day, not 2.5 mg?

Vornan

Vernon,

Yes, of course, it´s 2.5 grams per day I´m taking. Together with 100 mg of

Gingko, it has a prosexual effect for me and I´m thankful for that. I agree,

there is no reason to be unduly alarmed at the results from the arginine

supplementation. I am experimenting, though, by reducing the dose to one

gram to see if the effect holds. Are you still on arginine and what dose are

you on?

Ulf

[Guest guest]

Hi Ulf,

I take anything from 1 - 6 grams per day, sometimes a bit more. It

varies depending on whether I'm gonna work out or not, stuff like

that. I too am not really worried about this study.

Vornan

-- In SSRIsex , " Ulf Rasmusson " <ulf.rasmusson@b...>

wrote:

>

> Subject: Re: Arginine

>

> This is a surprising result. L-arginine is supposed to reduce

blood

> pressure by inducing nitric oxide synthesis, and there's quite a

bit

> of evidence that it does just that. Why it would increase death

> rate in heart attack survivors is very unclear. Note that of the 6

> deaths, 3 were of unspecified causes. I think there needs to be

much

> more follow up to determine what's going on.

>

> BTW, dose was 9 grams per day. I presume you mean you're taking

2.5

> grams per day, not 2.5 mg?

>

> Vornan

>

> Vernon,

> Yes, of course, it´s 2.5 grams per day I´m taking. Together with

100 mg of

> Gingko, it has a prosexual effect for me and I´m thankful for

that. I agree,

> there is no reason to be unduly alarmed at the results from the

arginine

> supplementation. I am experimenting, though, by reducing the dose

to one

> gram to see if the effect holds. Are you still on arginine and

what dose are

> you on?

> Ulf

>

[Guest guest]

Here is a post from another board I'm on that confirms my suspicions

that the arginine study was bogus.

Vornan

Below is Bill Sardi's analysis of the nonsensical conclusion that

came out

that made arginine look bad for cardio patients.

We are all under attack by the drug companies who are paying to

create bad

studies that make nutrients look bad. They are doing this, just as

Karl Rove

does it for Bush, by outthinking the public and the medical people

who DO

NOT actually do in-depth analysis, but rely on a scan of a headline

from a

source they " trust. "

We are under attack -- the attack on our long-term health. We are

like

cattle that they feed on. They don't want us to be so healthy we

don't need

to take drugs. They want to maintain us in a state where we need

doctors and

drugs.

We will continue to see nonsensical studies that would seek to

undermine our

confidence in safe, beneficial non-toxic nutrients, and herbs. Watch

for

them and be wary of them.

Mooney

www.michaelmooney.net

www.medibolics.com

***********************************************

Should The Public Be Wary of Arginine Supplements

2006-01-05 - Knowledge of Health, Inc.

By Bill Sardi

The headline report at WebMD said " Don't take L-arginine for Heart

Attack. "

I don't know of a person undergoing a heart attack who would think of

reaching for arginine pills, let alone be able to swallow 9 grams of

this

amino acid while attempting to gasp for breath and deal with the

crushing

chest pain. But that's what the headline said. It sounds like

somebody is

attempting to scare the public away from arginine pills. I Wonder

why?

Arginine has been marching towards greater acceptance for treatment

of a

variety of cardiovascular disorders in recent published studies. The

Journal of Nutrition suggests human studies begin using arginine

among

adults with high blood pressure, since arginine is required to

produce

nitric oxide, a transient gas that dilates (widens) blood vessels

and helps

to control blood pressure. [Journal Nutrition 134: 2807-11S, 2004]

But the January 4 issue of the Journal of the American Medical

Association

(JAMA) put a halt to the enthusiasm for arginine with the

announcement that

supplementation resulted in the deaths of six patients versus none

in an

un-supplemented group. [The Journal of the American Medical

Association,

January 4, 295: 58-64, 2006]

Contrary reports

To the contrary, when researchers in Poland provided 3000 milligrams

of

arginine, 3 times a day for 30 days, to people following the onset of

symptoms of a heart attack, 24% of patients given arginine

experienced

shock, pulmonary edema or a second heart attack, versus 27% in the

untreated

group. The researchers report that " no serious adverse events were

observed

during arginine supplementation. " [Kardiology Poland 62: 421-27,

2005] Of

course, this study wasn't heralded in news reports. Statistically

it could

be said the Polish doctors demonstrated a 13% reduction in adverse

cardiac

events following a heart attack.

Let's take a look at another recent study. When arginine is infused

into

patients with poor circulation during coronary artery bypass graft

surgery,

18 of 20 patients had their cardiac rhythm return to normal

spontaneously

versus only 4 of 20 untreated patients who had to undergo electric

shock

(defibrillation) to get their heart rhythm to return again.

[international

Journal Cardiology 97: 93-100, 2004]

Before we go any further, readers need to understand how arginine

works.

The body must control the internal diameter of the arteries.

Physical

activity increases the demand for oxygen, increases the heart rate,

and

could raise blood pressure, but the blood vessels compensate by

dilating

(widening). The blood vessels cannot dilate properly without

sufficient

amount of arginine, an amino acid, which is required for production

of a

transient gas called nitric oxide. Nitroglycerine pills also

generate

nitric oxide to dilate blood vessels. [Cellular Molecular Biology

51:

307-20, 2005] Bottom line, arginine is essential for human health.

Confusion

So is arginine good or bad? Actually, patients with coronary artery

disease

who experience mortal outcomes are more likely to have high levels

of an

inhibitor of nitric oxide, dimethylarginine, which is a by-product of

arginine. [Circulation Research 97: 53-59e, 2005]

But here's the confusing part. When animals that have been

genetically

engineered so that they don't produce nitric oxide are subjected to

a heart

attack, they experience a better outcome. The provision of arginine

worsens

their condition. The decrease in the heart pumping action (ejection

fraction) and increase and the enlarged size of the left ventricle

of the

heart are less severe after a heart attack in mice that cannot

produce

nitric oxide. In the post-heart attack period, a shortage of nitric

oxide

improves heart function. [American Journal Physiological Heart

Circulation

Physiology 289: H2616-23, 2005] But of course, this is an abnormal

condition where the normal control of nitric oxide via arginine has

been

removed. So it doesn't apply to humans undergoing a heart attack.

The body

attempts to product just the right amount of nitric oxide, not too

much, not

too little, and more when needed.

A recent study shows that 9000 mg of arginine given to patients with

coronary artery disease did not increase levels of nitric oxide

bioavailability. [Circulation 101: 2160-64, 2000] This is because

the body

produces it upon demand, such as with increased heart rate, etc. A

person

can pour all the arginine they want down their throat, it will only

produce

more arginine if the person is deficient in this amino acid. Which

is what

the researchers retrospectively now surmise who wrote the Journal of

the

American Medical Association report. The patients in the JAMA study

were

sufficient in arginine.

The missing information

But there are some facts missing that the public needs to be aware

of. The

patients in the American Medical Association report were being given

other

medications, aspirin (which depletes folic acid and vitamin C), a

beta

blocker (which slows the heart rate), an ACE inhibitor (to control

blood

pressure via artery dilation), and a statin cholesterol-lowering

drug that

depletes the body of coenzyme Q10, an antioxidant needed for heart

muscle

energy. It's no wonder arginine had no effect upon the ejection

fraction

(the measure of blood pumped out of the ventricles of the heart).

The

patient's were on three drugs that impair heart function!

The production of nitric oxide is countered and controlled by

dimethylarginine. [Hepatology 42: 1255-57, 2005] Researchers in

Korea

found higher levels of dimethylarginine after heart attacks, which is

associated with cardiac risks. They also attempted to measure

whether

dimethylarginine, a by-product or arginine, which inhibits the

overproduction of arginine, is influenced by medications (like the

one's

used in the JAMA study), but the numbers of patients taking various

medications were too small to develop any conclusions. [American

Journal

Cardiology 95: 729-33, 2005]

Proper conclusion

The conclusion of the study published in the Journal of the American

Medical

Association should have been, if a person has experienced a heart

attack,

and they are on all the deleterious standard medications which are

not

essential for human health, and which deplete the body of nutrients

essential for cardiovascular health, then maybe they shouldn't take

arginine, because there may be some kind of incompatibility.

However, it

would have been nice to see what arginine could have done all by

itself,

without the drugs to interfere.

Arginine in Russian experiment

Before the public is frightened away from arginine, let's go to

Russia,

where researchers used arginine in an animal experiment.

Russian doctors experimentally induced heart attacks in animals.

When a

heart attack was induced and arginine was administered, cardiac

output,

blood pressure and heart rate were stabilized and 80% of the animals

survived in the arginine group versus 33% in the non-arginine group.

[bulletin Experimental Biology Medicine 139: 384-87, 2005]

Arginine in France

So, finally, researchers in France were looking for an agent that

would

augment and enhance nitric oxide production when taking statin

cholesterol-lowering drugs. Researchers in Paris demonstrated in

animals

that the combination of arginine with a statin cholesterol-lowering

drug

significantly " hinders the spread of arterial plaques " over the use

of

statin drugs alone and " opens a new era of therapeutic strategy. "

[ls

Biol Clin 63:443-55, 2005]

It seems these days, any time a nutrient or herbal agent appears it

could

replace more expensive and problematic drugs, a news headline soon

appears

slamming the nutrient or herb. I'm wondering if the public is

becoming

suspicious of these news reports and the pseudo-science that is

behind them?

- Bill Sardi Copyright 2006 Knowledge of Health, Inc. Not for

posting on

commercial websites.

[Guest guest]

I hope all this stuff is exposed in michael moores next film.

Some people have recovered Mike and some people improve with certain

treatments its all very complicated.When asked by my doctor if i was

depressed i simply said " no " .

If i didnt i knew the next words out of his mouth would be blaming

sexual dysfunction on depression instead the pills he gave me.

[Guest guest]

I´m sorry if I caused any unnecessary commotion by quoting that arginine

supplementation study on cardiac patients. However, for my own part it was

good writing about it because seeing that subsequent analyis by Sardi,

displayed on this list, certainly helped put my mind to rest about arginine.

Vornan, you mentioned varying doses of arginine. Why would it vary depending

on whether you exercise? (I assume you mean exercise by " working out " , and

not sexual activity - the latter I would understand if it were the cause of

a varying dose!).

Before I started arginine/biloba, Viagra/Cialis was of some help, but I´m

uncertain whether they help now. Perhaps they are not additive to arginine

because they target a similar pathway.

Ulf

[Guest guest]

Yes, by " working out: I mean exercise :-) If only sex was a workout!

Right now it much more of a cuddling/spooning type of thing.

But seriously, I do increase the dosage of arginine on the days I lift

weights. Say a few grams about an hour before working out.

Viagra or Cialis could be additive to arginine because although they

both increase NO, they do it through a different mechanism. I'm not

sure I would recommend it though.

Vornan

>

> Vornan, you mentioned varying doses of arginine. Why would it vary

depending

> on whether you exercise? (I assume you mean exercise by " working

out " , and

> not sexual activity - the latter I would understand if it were the

cause of

> a varying dose!).

>

> Before I started arginine/biloba, Viagra/Cialis was of some help,

but I´m

> uncertain whether they help now. Perhaps they are not additive to

arginine

> because they target a similar pathway.

>

> Ulf

>

[Guest guest]

Vornan wrote:

>>Viagra or Cialis could be additive to arginine because although they

both increase NO, they do it through a different mechanism. I'm not

sure I would recommend it though.>>

Vornan,

Is there something to say about arginine vs Viagra/Cialis from our

perspective?

Ulf

[Guest guest]

Hi Ulf,

Techically speaking viagra et al. don't increase NO levels.

Nitric oxide (NO) activates the enzyme guanylate cyclase which

results in increased levels of cGMP, resulting in increased inflow

of blood and an erection.

Viagra et al. work by blocking the breakdown of cGMP (by inhibiting

PDE5, which is responsible for degradation of cGMP in the penis). So

viagra doesn't actually increase levels of NO, but rather increases

erection strength further downstream of the pathway.

In theory combining arginine with viagra would work because the

arginine would generate more NO leading to more cGMP, and then the

viagra would block the breakdown of the cGMP. Though I'd be wary of

priapism from overloading the system. It's not something I would

try myself.

Vornan

-- In SSRIsex , " Ulf Rasmusson " <ulf.rasmusson@b...>

wrote:

>

>

> Vornan wrote:

>

> >>Viagra or Cialis could be additive to arginine because although

they

> both increase NO, they do it through a different mechanism. I'm

not

> sure I would recommend it though.>>

>

>

> Vornan,

> Is there something to say about arginine vs Viagra/Cialis from our

> perspective?

> Ulf

>

[Guest guest]

....and I think arginine would always be the safer option of the two

because it is a natural amino acid, whereas viagra is obviously

something that doesn't normally exist in the body.

-- In SSRIsex , " v0rnan19 " <vornan19@g...> wrote:

>

> Hi Ulf,

>

> Techically speaking viagra et al. don't increase NO levels.

>

> Nitric oxide (NO) activates the enzyme guanylate cyclase which

> results in increased levels of cGMP, resulting in increased inflow

> of blood and an erection.

>

> Viagra et al. work by blocking the breakdown of cGMP (by

inhibiting

> PDE5, which is responsible for degradation of cGMP in the penis).

So

> viagra doesn't actually increase levels of NO, but rather

increases

> erection strength further downstream of the pathway.

>

> In theory combining arginine with viagra would work because the

> arginine would generate more NO leading to more cGMP, and then the

> viagra would block the breakdown of the cGMP. Though I'd be wary

of

> priapism from overloading the system. It's not something I would

> try myself.

>

> Vornan

>

> -- In SSRIsex , " Ulf Rasmusson "

<ulf.rasmusson@b...>

> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Vornan wrote:

> >

> > >>Viagra or Cialis could be additive to arginine because

although

> they

> > both increase NO, they do it through a different mechanism. I'm

> not

> > sure I would recommend it though.>>

> >

> >

> > Vornan,

> > Is there something to say about arginine vs Viagra/Cialis from

our

> > perspective?

> > Ulf

> >

>