Re: Cross-breeding Kombucha Strains won't work.

[Guest guest]

Is it, Dave?

Someone on this List more expert than I (It could have been Bob or

Michaer) said thet. if you put halves of two different strains in one

brew, the stronger one will dominate

I usually have four strains going, Dallas Dave, Trevor Pyman, my sweet

ones and, " Baby Z " .

I have had Dallas Dave's for almost ten years.

di Stafano's got mislabeled. " Baby Z: is probably his. I will soon

have a new one called, " Baby X. " If I try to get a scoby from Dr.

Sklenar's brew, I will call it, " Baby K. "

I used to have my sour ones. I think that one was from my son who has

psoriasis. I don't know if that one would have been specific to someone

else's psoriasis.

I have this weird notion than our Kombucha loves us and mutates for our

conditions if we handle them with our bare hands.

If you have separate strains, you must keep their starter and scobies

separate from the other strains and wash all utensils between hand;omgs

Will I ever get Ariana's Oriental Strain?

I feel blessed that I can still make my own Kombucha Tea, even though it

is harder.

Maybe, one of my 18 grandchildren will learn how to make it. Most are

college age. LOve. MArge.

[Guest guest]

Hello Marge,

I just read your info with great interest and wonder if you can tell a

qualitative difference between the products of the different strains?

provided all other brewing conditions remain the same? (Having said

that, I realize there are differences even with the same scoby, used

over time....)May I ask why you are brewing from differentstrains at

the same time? Do cover a wider field?

Mine is a " descendant " of Guenther 's cultures, it looks very

plump and healthy.

Doris

>

> Is it, Dave?

>

> Someone on this List more expert than I (It could have been Bob or

> Michaer) said thet. if you put halves of two different strains in one

> brew, the stronger one will dominate

>

> I usually have four strains going, Dallas Dave, Trevor Pyman, my sweet

> ones and, " Baby Z " .

> I have had Dallas Dave's for almost ten years.

>

> di Stafano's got mislabeled. " Baby Z: is probably his. I will soon

> have a new one called, " Baby X. " If I try to get a scoby from Dr.

> Sklenar's brew, I will call it, " Baby K. "

>

> I used to have my sour ones. I think that one was from my son who has

> psoriasis. I don't know if that one would have been specific to someone

> else's psoriasis.

>

> I have this weird notion than our Kombucha loves us and mutates for our

> conditions if we handle them with our bare hands.

>

> If you have separate strains, you must keep their starter and scobies

> separate from the other strains and wash all utensils between hand;omgs

>

> Will I ever get Ariana's Oriental Strain?

>

> I feel blessed that I can still make my own Kombucha Tea, even though it

> is harder.

>

> Maybe, one of my 18 grandchildren will learn how to make it. Most are

> college age. LOve. MArge.

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, I see a lot of obstacles here. Maybe even a Pandora's Box!

1. How is it possible to actually differentiate for us between the

different groups of micro-organisms that make up the SCOBY? I have a

800x microscope but that isn't even close to seeing much less ID'ing

what the heck any of this stuff is. Maybe a $10k investment for a

used electron scanning microscope would be a nice start.

Once you have the right microscope, you still would need to positively

identify your prokaryotes, aka bacteria, and unicellular fungi, aka

yeasts. I think with the bacteria, you would want either gram

staining, Ziehl-Neelsen staining, DNA sequence-based microbial

identification, or some kind of biochemical test. Mycological

identification of your yeasts would include germ tube testing or a

more modern technique such as chromogenic isolation media. Take your

pick.

All of above are way outside the average user's capabilities and

economics.

2. Cross-breeding? Maybe we are really talking about genetic

manipulation on the molecular level. Start this with a few hundred

thousand dollars for investment in microbiological hardware,

facilities and experienced help.

3. Differences in SCOBY? Okay, once you are all set up with proper

equipment and training, IMHO you would want to start with a scientific

study to correlate the differences in shape, color, texture, ect. with

the population of dominant species of bacteria and yeast in the SCOBY.

So spend a year in your microbiological lab, you could do this as a

part-time hobby, I suppose, possibly you could get a gov. grant for

this, assuming you can include some PhD credentials that might

convince them to fund the research.

Bottom line, I don't think any layman like me or the average reader

here will ever be able to do anything about the SCOBY. Even if we

could see it in the microscope. God knows how long this KT thing has

existed, maybe not in the billions of years like our ever-present

blue-green algae (aka cyanobacteria). And I haven't heard of anyone

making " designer Spirulina algae " yet. Besides, even if they did, I

would be very scared to become their first guinea-pig.

Some perfectly harmless and edible species of cyanobacteria have been

know to suddenly produce deadly nuero-toxins, i.e., Anabaena flos

aquae(AFA) in the wild has been known to produce anatoxin-a under

certain conditions of environmental stress, this is essentially a

nerve agent, symptoms include twitching, muscle spasm, paralysis,

respiratory arrest which can begin minutes after ingestion,

nonetheless AFA is tested and sold as a 'health food', marketed as

" Super Blue Green Algae " in most health food stores.

Might we assume the SCOBY is something with primeval DNA like ferns,

sharks and alligators? Cross-breeding prehistoric species, well, I

guess it would probably not be very easy, " Jurassic Park " was all so

much Hollywood fantasy, and the end result could instead be totally

unpredictable, for example, playing around with one species of yeast

might adversely affect the symbiotic relationship of the other

bacteria or yeast, and we could just as well end up with some kind of

enstein freak show producing dangerous neurotoxins instead of a

variation of our refreshing beverage.

I don't want to discourgage you, and I'm not into scare tactics, but I

just don't think maying hybrid KT would be quite the same as trying to

produce different varieties of peppers, tomatoes, potatoes, roses,

ect. The latter are more recent from the evolutionary standpoint,

being slightly more conducive to genetic manipulation or " cross-breeding " .

Someone should correct me if I missed the point in any of the above

statements.

> >

> > Is it, Dave?

> >

> > Someone on this List more expert than I (It could have been Bob or

> > Michaer) said thet. if you put halves of two different strains in one

> > brew, the stronger one will dominate

> >

> > I usually have four strains going, Dallas Dave, Trevor Pyman, my sweet

> > ones and, " Baby Z " .

> > I have had Dallas Dave's for almost ten years.

> >

> > di Stafano's got mislabeled. " Baby Z: is probably his. I will

soon

> > have a new one called, " Baby X. " If I try to get a scoby from Dr.

> > Sklenar's brew, I will call it, " Baby K. "

> >

> > I used to have my sour ones. I think that one was from my son who has

> > psoriasis. I don't know if that one would have been specific to

someone

> > else's psoriasis.

> >

> > I have this weird notion than our Kombucha loves us and mutates

for our

> > conditions if we handle them with our bare hands.

> >

> > If you have separate strains, you must keep their starter and scobies

> > separate from the other strains and wash all utensils between

hand;omgs

> >

> > Will I ever get Ariana's Oriental Strain?

> >

> > I feel blessed that I can still make my own Kombucha Tea, even

though it

> > is harder.

> >

> > Maybe, one of my 18 grandchildren will learn how to make it. Most are

> > college age. LOve. MArge.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Since bacteria and yeast are asexual organisms I am not even sure

cross breeding is the proper term, because genetic material from two

different cells (like an egg and sperm) do not mix to create another

organism. Both the yeast and the bacteria just divide into two

daughter cells, using the genetic material from the parent cell. Part

of the definition of the bacteria kingdom (prokaryotic) is that they

produce asexually. Yeast (part of the fungus kingdom) bud, but it is

still asexual reproducing, so I am not sure how cross breeding could

even occur since genetic material from two different cells do not mix.

However, with that being said, I have placed two scoby in a large jar

and begot (love that Biblical word) one scoby on the top of the tea

which I have always believed was a mix of the two other cultures but

have never been able to be sure because as was mention below one would

have to be able to prove it at the cellular level which would be

course expensive. I might add that the scoby was one of my best

cultures, and is always able to produce a very nice baby (I still have

it).

These organisms I believe are a colony, the bacteria and yeast living

together, so I do not know why bacteria and yeast from both SCOBY

could not mix together to live together.

Wonder if any microbiologist on the list could answer that question.

Kellie

> > >

> > > Is it, Dave?

> > >

> > > Someone on this List more expert than I (It could have been Bob or

> > > Michaer) said thet. if you put halves of two different strains

in one

> > > brew, the stronger one will dominate

> > >

> > > I usually have four strains going, Dallas Dave, Trevor Pyman, my

sweet

> > > ones and, " Baby Z " .

> > > I have had Dallas Dave's for almost ten years.

> > >

> > > di Stafano's got mislabeled. " Baby Z: is probably his. I will

> soon

> > > have a new one called, " Baby X. " If I try to get a scoby from Dr.

> > > Sklenar's brew, I will call it, " Baby K. "

> > >

> > > I used to have my sour ones. I think that one was from my son

who has

> > > psoriasis. I don't know if that one would have been specific to

> someone

> > > else's psoriasis.

> > >

> > > I have this weird notion than our Kombucha loves us and mutates

> for our

> > > conditions if we handle them with our bare hands.

> > >

> > > If you have separate strains, you must keep their starter and

scobies

> > > separate from the other strains and wash all utensils between

> hand;omgs

> > >

> > > Will I ever get Ariana's Oriental Strain?

> > >

> > > I feel blessed that I can still make my own Kombucha Tea, even

> though it

> > > is harder.

> > >

> > > Maybe, one of my 18 grandchildren will learn how to make it.

Most are

> > > college age. LOve. MArge.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi all:

Okay, the ferment is selective spoilage, so it is a Darwinian brew. If

you mix ferments or change the food supply (the tea, the sugar) you can

breed in or breed out certain yeast and bacteria. When you mix ferments,

they may live happily ever after, or .... the strongest may remove the

weaker yeast and bacteria. In our experiment with glucose, we bred out

several yeast and bacteria, because they did not have the fructose molecule

to survive, and so, they did not. When you breed with sucrose (table sugar)

you provide food for a large range of organisms, but if you go to just

glucose or fructose, you limit the food supply. It is right that they will

not " combine " but they may live together.

I hope that made sense.

Mike Roussin

mike@...

Re: Cross-breeding Kombucha Strains won't work.

> However, with that being said, I have placed two scoby in a large jar

> and begot (love that Biblical word) one scoby on the top of the tea

> which I have always believed was a mix of the two other cultures but

> have never been able to be sure because as was mention below one would

> have to be able to prove it at the cellular level which would be

> course expensive. I might add that the scoby was one of my best

> cultures, and is always able to produce a very nice baby (I still have

> it).

>

> These organisms I believe are a colony, the bacteria and yeast living

> together, so I do not know why bacteria and yeast from both SCOBY

> could not mix together to live together.

>

> Wonder if any microbiologist on the list could answer that question.

> Kellie

[Guest guest]

Hi:

I am also brewing with several different strains of scobys from

several sources. I did it just out of curiosity.

The last pair of scobys I got were from a gal in Texas who said that

hers were descended from her original scobys from Cajun Ernie. She

also had used some type of Hawaiian white honey that imparted a

really wonderful taste. I might get some but use it in a smaller

quantity.

Pam

> >

> > Is it, Dave?

> >

> > Someone on this List more expert than I (It could have been Bob or

> > Michaer) said thet. if you put halves of two different strains

in one

> > brew, the stronger one will dominate

> >

> > I usually have four strains going, Dallas Dave, Trevor Pyman, my

sweet

> > ones and, " Baby Z " .

> > I have had Dallas Dave's for almost ten years.

> >

> > di Stafano's got mislabeled. " Baby Z: is probably his. I

will soon

> > have a new one called, " Baby X. " If I try to get a scoby from Dr.

> > Sklenar's brew, I will call it, " Baby K. "

> >

> > I used to have my sour ones. I think that one was from my son who

has

> > psoriasis. I don't know if that one would have been specific to

someone

> > else's psoriasis.

> >

> > I have this weird notion than our Kombucha loves us and mutates

for our

> > conditions if we handle them with our bare hands.

> >

> > If you have separate strains, you must keep their starter and

scobies

> > separate from the other strains and wash all utensils between

hand;omgs

> >

> > Will I ever get Ariana's Oriental Strain?

> >

> > I feel blessed that I can still make my own Kombucha Tea, even

though it

> > is harder.

> >

> > Maybe, one of my 18 grandchildren will learn how to make it. Most

are

> > college age. LOve. MArge.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

That is what i meant. A combined brew should (although someone cited

evidence to the contrary) produce a scoby with a mixture of bacteria

and yeasts from both " parents "

> > > >

> > > > Is it, Dave?

> > > >

> > > > Someone on this List more expert than I (It could have been Bob or

> > > > Michaer) said thet. if you put halves of two different strains

> in one

> > > > brew, the stronger one will dominate

> > > >

> > > > I usually have four strains going, Dallas Dave, Trevor Pyman, my

> sweet

> > > > ones and, " Baby Z " .

> > > > I have had Dallas Dave's for almost ten years.

> > > >

> > > > di Stafano's got mislabeled. " Baby Z: is probably his. I will

> > soon

> > > > have a new one called, " Baby X. " If I try to get a scoby from Dr.

> > > > Sklenar's brew, I will call it, " Baby K. "

> > > >

> > > > I used to have my sour ones. I think that one was from my son

> who has

> > > > psoriasis. I don't know if that one would have been specific to

> > someone

> > > > else's psoriasis.

> > > >

> > > > I have this weird notion than our Kombucha loves us and mutates

> > for our

> > > > conditions if we handle them with our bare hands.

> > > >

> > > > If you have separate strains, you must keep their starter and

> scobies

> > > > separate from the other strains and wash all utensils between

> > hand;omgs

> > > >

> > > > Will I ever get Ariana's Oriental Strain?

> > > >

> > > > I feel blessed that I can still make my own Kombucha Tea, even

> > though it

> > > > is harder.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe, one of my 18 grandchildren will learn how to make it.

> Most are

> > > > college age. LOve. MArge.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

You missed the point, but thanks for the info. I'm not talking about

genetic engineering, but more like animal (or scoby) husbandry.

For example: Jim says his scoby had great results on is arthritis. So

did Jane. If we take a scoby from each and we brew them together, I'd

like to think (maybe wishfully) that we'd get a great scoby for

arthritis sufferers.

Similar to mating a goat that produces good milk to one that produces

good meat and hoping the result is one that produces good meat and milk.

--- Though that didn't work out too well with killer bees now did it?

:0

> > >

> > > Is it, Dave?

> > >

> > > Someone on this List more expert than I (It could have been Bob or

> > > Michaer) said thet. if you put halves of two different strains

in one

> > > brew, the stronger one will dominate

> > >

> > > I usually have four strains going, Dallas Dave, Trevor Pyman, my

sweet

> > > ones and, " Baby Z " .

> > > I have had Dallas Dave's for almost ten years.

> > >

> > > di Stafano's got mislabeled. " Baby Z: is probably his. I will

> soon

> > > have a new one called, " Baby X. " If I try to get a scoby from Dr.

> > > Sklenar's brew, I will call it, " Baby K. "

> > >

> > > I used to have my sour ones. I think that one was from my son

who has

> > > psoriasis. I don't know if that one would have been specific to

> someone

> > > else's psoriasis.

> > >

> > > I have this weird notion than our Kombucha loves us and mutates

> for our

> > > conditions if we handle them with our bare hands.

> > >

> > > If you have separate strains, you must keep their starter and

scobies

> > > separate from the other strains and wash all utensils between

> hand;omgs

> > >

> > > Will I ever get Ariana's Oriental Strain?

> > >

> > > I feel blessed that I can still make my own Kombucha Tea, even

> though it

> > > is harder.

> > >

> > > Maybe, one of my 18 grandchildren will learn how to make it.

Most are

> > > college age. LOve. MArge.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks mike.

I understand the sugar concept.

Not sure why they wouldn't live together. I don't one strain of yeast

has a means to push out a strain of yeast that is slightly different

genetically.

>

> Hi all:

>

> Okay, the ferment is selective spoilage, so it is a Darwinian

brew. If

> you mix ferments or change the food supply (the tea, the sugar) you can

> breed in or breed out certain yeast and bacteria. When you mix

ferments,

> they may live happily ever after, or .... the strongest may remove the

> weaker yeast and bacteria. In our experiment with glucose, we bred out

> several yeast and bacteria, because they did not have the fructose

molecule

> to survive, and so, they did not. When you breed with sucrose (table

sugar)

> you provide food for a large range of organisms, but if you go to just

> glucose or fructose, you limit the food supply. It is right that

they will

> not " combine " but they may live together.

>

> I hope that made sense.

>

> Mike Roussin

> mike@...

>

> Re: Cross-breeding Kombucha Strains won't work.

>

>

> > However, with that being said, I have placed two scoby in a large jar

> > and begot (love that Biblical word) one scoby on the top of the tea

> > which I have always believed was a mix of the two other cultures but

> > have never been able to be sure because as was mention below one would

> > have to be able to prove it at the cellular level which would be

> > course expensive. I might add that the scoby was one of my best

> > cultures, and is always able to produce a very nice baby (I still have

> > it).

> >

> > These organisms I believe are a colony, the bacteria and yeast living

> > together, so I do not know why bacteria and yeast from both SCOBY

> > could not mix together to live together.

> >

> > Wonder if any microbiologist on the list could answer that question.

> > Kellie

>

[Guest guest]

I believe, with Marge, that when we handle the SCOBY it gets info about us

that it uses to make better KT for us. There is an element to the kombucha

culture that is Mystery.

--V

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste