Re: For Tom & Inger ( & others) Bringing together the leaders

[Guest guest]

Inger:

> I've sent you the links in private. It can be accessed via one of the

links

> posted at the AP links page.

One of the links you sent can be found through " StarTrek " histories. The

other one I'm unable to find at all, but there seems to be a similar

story under another " StarTrek " heading.

Nowhere on the site is there any associations between these stories

and autism.

It is as if somebody claim that RDOS operating system on

my site is racist because somebody find the neanderthal

theory on the same site racist.

I think Bonnie is entitled to publish her StarTrek stories

on the same site as her neurodiversity AP sites without

people complaining. I do the same thing on my site. I

publish the AP-list on the same page as operating system

related web-rings.

Leif

[Guest guest]

Sorry, Leif, it seems that you already got them. (Just thought I'd help

out in case Tom coudn't find them.)

I'll try to mind my own business now.

My apologies to the rest of the forum, I did not mean to open such a

can of worms here. I just wanted to know who I would be in a coalition

with.

Can we leave this subject now and move on to something more pleasant?

Inger

[Guest guest]

I am going to attempt to stay out of this discussion henceforth since

my opinion has already been stated: FAM won't join unless AFF and AP

are prohibited from joining.

I will not hold anything against those who wish to join on his

project. I also support and the general idea of the project,

just not who he is willing to work with on it.

Others are welcome to discuss the issue.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

Oops, I missed this post. I feel obliged to reply to it, but after this, I

really want to drop the subject if you don't mind, Leif?

Inger:

> The only ones here who may have an " attitude " about AFF are those who have

> been unfairly treated by them. I don't want to bash anyone; just asking

> some questions and explaining why I am not overly keen on being in a joint

> venture with them - or with AP who state in their board policy that you

> can't mention AS in anything but positive light or risk having your post

> edited.

Leif:

> I don't agree with the attitude about AP here. I think it is an

> extraordinary idea that has worked. AP is the largest list of crosslinked

> sites about AS, and have great impact on search engine hits. Instead of

> finding loads of cure-information when you search for autism you get AP. I

> cannot see why people here is bashing that idea.

I haven't seen ANYONE bash THAT idea.

The only thing that some of us object to is their habit of editing, ejecting

and/or attacking and even stalking for example those who have a different

opinion on the wisdom of making fun of non-autistics as part of their pride

thing, including autistic celebrities who refuse to sign up under their

banner and have the 'nerve' to reserve the right to hold their individual

and more balanced views on autism instead of accepting AFF party line.

> I will certainly not withdraw anything from there.

Not asking you to.

> I've not had any complaints about content or any other issues with Bonnie

> Ventura.

Yes you have, actually... :-)

>> But that doesn't mean that many of us aren't also in need of assistance.

>> I

> happen to be a color genius. But I am still too sensitive and physically

> incapacitated to make it in this world without assistance. Only difference

> between me and the fanatic faction is that I don't see it as degrading to

> need help. I don't feel that it makes me worth any less as a human being.

> I'm not too proud to ask for the help that I need.

> I like to have the attitude that I can do everything myself. Its part of

> my personality.

Sure, but you're therefore not insisting that everyone should be able to do

everything themselves, just because you are capable of doing so?

>> Very interesting. What happens when you have too much blood then? Do you

>> get symtoms like in autism?

> I have no idea.

Isn't it high time to find out then, if you think this is linked to autism?

>> Why don't you start an information campaign about that, then?

>

> I might. I sent a letter to RFA, which they ignored. Maybe if I send

them a new letter linking to the new information they might

finally wake-up?

You can always try. If they don't care, how about the Gillberg group who has

real medical expereience?

Inger

[Guest guest]

Inger:

> Oops, I missed this post. I feel obliged to reply to it, but after this, I

> really want to drop the subject if you don't mind, Leif?

Dropping most of it...

> > I've not had any complaints about content or any other issues with

Bonnie

> > Ventura.

>

> Yes you have, actually... :-)

I did? I don't remember.

> > I like to have the attitude that I can do everything myself. Its part of

> > my personality.

>

> Sure, but you're therefore not insisting that everyone should be able to

do

> everything themselves, just because you are capable of doing so?

No, I'm not. Just that those who like to should have the opportunity.

> >> Very interesting. What happens when you have too much blood then? Do

you

> >> get symtoms like in autism?

>

> > I have no idea.

>

> Isn't it high time to find out then, if you think this is linked to

autism?

Seems like there is not enough research, and I can't research

something like this on my own. It requires PCA (gene) sequencing

a random group of autistics and controls. All I can do is to

put pressure on those who could do it.

Leif

[Guest guest]

I have been in regular on again/off again communication with Donna

who has had some of the issues with AFF that Inger

describes below.

If you want to find out about them, I could provide you with an e-

mail address whereby Donna might be reached.

AFF moves against can hardly be in your interest Leif, or

in the interest of autistics generally.

Tom

Administrator

Inger to Leif:

" The only thing that some of us object to is their habit of editing,

ejecting and/or attacking and even stalking for example those who

have a different opinion on the wisdom of making fun of non-

autistics as part of their pride thing, including autistic

celebrities who refuse to sign up under their banner and have

the 'nerve' to reserve the right to hold their individual and more

balanced views on autism instead of accepting AFF party line. "

[Guest guest]

Leif:

> Dropping most of it...

Thanks.

Just ONE tiny little thing that I forgot, before I finally drop it too: if

was " hateful " as you said earlier, he would hardly invite AFF to join

in his new project, would he? Instead he is willing to lay any personal

feelings for the greater good of all Aspies/autistics, as he percieves it.

That's hardly a hateful person, that is a true idealist.

> > > I like to have the attitude that I can do everything myself. Its part

> > > of

> > > my personality.

>

> > Sure, but you're therefore not insisting that everyone should be able to

> > do everything themselves, just because you are capable of doing so?

>

> No, I'm not. Just that those who like to should have the opportunity.

Of course! Who is stopping them?

>>>> Very interesting. What happens when you have too much blood then? Do

you get symtoms like in autism?

>>

>>> I have no idea.

>>

>> Isn't it high time to find out then, if you think this is linked to

>> autism?

>

> Seems like there is not enough research, and I can't research

something like this on my own. It requires PCA (gene) sequencing

a random group of autistics and controls. All I can do is to

put pressure on those who could do it.

Sounds like a worthwhile venture. Have you tried approaching Gillberg with

it?

Inger

[Guest guest]

Tom:

> I have been in regular on again/off again communication with Donna

> who has had some of the issues with AFF that Inger

> describes below.

>

> If you want to find out about them, I could provide you with an e-

> mail address whereby Donna might be reached.

>

> AFF moves against can hardly be in your interest Leif, or

> in the interest of autistics generally.

Seems like Donna is a decent " autism celebrity " . I usually

have issues with " autism celebrities " . I do support most of the

material she has on her site, as well as her talk about curing

comorbidities and leaving out our personalities.

I am not very active on AFF. I occassionally write on their

forum if they discuss some of my interests. In fact, I think

wrong-planet has a far better forum than AFF, and have some

pretty interesting threads.

Leif

[Guest guest]

That's odd (or maybe it's not), but I clicked on the link below and

the information was not there. Was it there for anyone else?

>

> " AFF has got publicity outside of traditional advocacy circles, and

is

> recognized as a radical AS site. If some of them are satanists,

> budhist or whatever is irrelevant. "

>

> We can get the publicity they have. The reason we have not gotten

it

> so far is that their members on Wikkepedia keep deleting our links

and

> banning us when we protest. Additionally, they slam us openly on

other

> sites and we have to go surfing the net to find these posts in

order

> to combat them. By then it is too late.

>

> The fact that Gareth is a Satanist is directly relevant because he

> believes the following:

>

> http://www.aspiesforfreedom.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?

> t=1043 & postdays=0 & postorder=asc & start=105

>

> " To the satanist, the self is god. "

>

> We have no chance working in conjunction with a person whose flaws

are

> the rules they live by and govern with. Imperfection is a stmbling

> block. Not a foundation.

>

> " I think any site that claims to represent all views cannot take

sides

> against particular sites, regardless if they are pro-cure or think

> Aspies are good as they are. "

>

> Agreed. And so we can simply say:

>

> " This site represents all views except those of the radical

autistic

> community. To wit: AFF. "

>

> Tom

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

You have to put the entire link in your web-browser. It's there.

Tom

Administrator

That's odd (or maybe it's not), but I clicked on the link below and

the information was not there. Was it there for anyone else?

[Guest guest]

yeah I got it thanks :-)

>

> That's odd (or maybe it's not), but I clicked on the link below and

> the information was not there. Was it there for anyone else?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

yeah I got it thanks :-)

>

> That's odd (or maybe it's not), but I clicked on the link below and

> the information was not there. Was it there for anyone else?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm not posting anymore when I am still half asleep.

And I

think the UN would do well to eject certain nations from its

> groups of nations for human rights abuses. Even the US, for

> torturing prisoners outside of its borders.

>

> My opinion stands. FAM will not joining anything that AP or AFF is

> involved in.

>

> Tom

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

My assertion was that there was the molestation and rape of mentally

incapacitated individuals.

You have the anal fisting of a Borg drone boy who can do nothing but

comply because he can do nothing else, even though he screams in pain

as Picard pulls out his guts through his anus.

Then you have the molestation and rape of a Pakhlid. Pakhlids, you will

understand, are not too bright creatures and are easily taken advantage

of.

Given the innocence of autistics and their being taken advantage of

sexually as depicted in newspaper articles, and their being taken

advatage of generally, the parallels are clear.

At any rate, some of the characters in these stories are underaged

children (Bart Simpson being one of these), and so when Bonnie

advocates for children, she is clearly hypocritical if her site posts

stories where they are molested.

You assertion is specious at best, and my feeling is the only reason

you support Aspergian pride and AFF is because, even though these

groups have done absolutely nothing for you fo the two or more years

they have been in existence, they have formed coalitions that COULD do

somenthing for you if only they could get themselves organized.

Unfortunately, the major autistic authors already feel they are jokes

and that those that band with them are ignorant. So you work against

yourself by linking up with them.

This is YOUR mental incpacitation, and this is how YOU are taken

advantage of by Bonnie, Gareth and Amy.

At any rate, it is clear that you support Bonnie's stories or right to

post them, and a person who would support these stories is not one that

I would want to be in a coalition with.

Tom

Administrator

" Nowhere on the site is there any associations between these stories

and autism. "

[Guest guest]

Yes, well, just be aware that the forum you occassional post to has

worked against this " decent 'autism celebrity' " as you call her.

WrongPlanet is am okay board. I have no issues with them.

Amy and Gareth do though. As I recall they were banned from that

board...as they were banned from this one. And didn't ban

them? And didn't they quit AI over some sort of flap or other?

It's hard to believe that they speak for the autistic community when

so many big boards and major players shun them

including " decent 'autism celebrities'.

Maybe the power of Satan keeps AFF alive.

Who can say?

Tom

Administrator

Tom:

> I have been in regular on again/off again communication with Donna

> who has had some of the issues with AFF that Inger

> describes below.

>

> If you want to find out about them, I could provide you with an e-

> mail address whereby Donna might be reached.

>

> AFF moves against can hardly be in your interest Leif, or

> in the interest of autistics generally.

Seems like Donna is a decent " autism celebrity " . I usually

have issues with " autism celebrities " . I do support most of the

material she has on her site, as well as her talk about curing

comorbidities and leaving out our personalities.

I am not very active on AFF. I occassionally write on their

forum if they discuss some of my interests. In fact, I think

wrong-planet has a far better forum than AFF, and have some

pretty interesting threads.

Leif

[Guest guest]

Tom,

this message surely could have been sent in private too. We may have minors

reading this forum and many of our other members aren't particularly keen on

reading stuff like this either. I vote for removing it from the archives.

I also think you ought to stick to giving the information asked for, and

then leave Leif free to make up his own mind and do whatever he pleases.

This is getting close to badgering.

Inger

Tom wrote:

My assertion was that there was the molestation and rape of mentally

incapacitated individuals.

<snip some disgusting bits>

You assertion is specious at best, and my feeling is the only reason

you support Aspergian pride and AFF is because, even though these

groups have done absolutely nothing for you fo the two or more years

they have been in existence, they have formed coalitions that COULD do

somenthing for you if only they could get themselves organized.

Unfortunately, the major autistic authors already feel they are jokes

and that those that band with them are ignorant. So you work against

yourself by linking up with them.

This is YOUR mental incpacitation, and this is how YOU are taken

advantage of by Bonnie, Gareth and Amy.

At any rate, it is clear that you support Bonnie's stories or right to

post them, and a person who would support these stories is not one that

I would want to be in a coalition with.

Tom

Administrator

" Nowhere on the site is there any associations between these stories

and autism. "

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

[Guest guest]

" Tom,

this message surely could have been sent in private too. We may have

minors reading this forum and many of our other members aren't

particularly keen on reading stuff like this either. I vote for

removing it from the archives. "

Inger:

Bonnie has arrogated to herself the authoruty and status to advocate to

those autistic who may be mentally incapacitated. In this case I feel

it is necessary to let people know exactly what she claims to advocate

vs. what she actually advocates so that they can make their own minds

up.

The same goes with my persistence with speaking against Gareth. Here we

have an individual whose belief system (Satanism) mandates that he

works against religion. Some autistics are religious. Therefore, how

can Gareth claim to be working for them even when he is working against

them?

If he is doing this out of ignorance, then this suggests duality.

If he is doing this deliberately, this suggests duplicity.

Those who would support Gareth ought to be made clear of these fact in

no uncertain terms, and so I feel it is necessary to make it as clean

as possible.

" I also think you ought to stick to giving the information asked for,

and then leave Leif free to make up his own mind and do whatever he

pleases. This is getting close to badgering. "

Leif cannot make up his mind without the facts, and it may be that

others here arre also making up their own minds.

When Leif firmly says:

1) " I support Bonnie's BDSM stories depicting the mistreatment of

mentally incpacitated children and adults against their will even as

some some of the autistics she claims to support are mentally

incapacitated children and adults. "

And when Leif firmly says:

2) " I support an avowed Satanist deadicated to destroy religion even as

this Satanist claims to advocate religious autistic people. "

It will be clear to me that Leif has made his decision and then I will

be quiet.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

Leif owes you no declaration whatsoever. I strongly oppose any further

badgering and ask you to leave him alone. He is a free individual and is

free to associate with whomever he likes.

I may personally dislike it, but that doesn't change the fact that he still

IS a free individual and if you wish to limit that freedom, then that's not

much different from what AFF have been doing (except that you may feel your

motives are nobler).

Please do not turn this into a war. You have already declared that you will

not be in a coalition with AFF or AP. You have stated your reasons. Please

leave it at that, as you said you would.

Inger

Re: For Tom & Inger ( & others) Bringing

together the leaders

" Tom,

this message surely could have been sent in private too. We may have

minors reading this forum and many of our other members aren't

particularly keen on reading stuff like this either. I vote for

removing it from the archives. "

Inger:

Bonnie has arrogated to herself the authoruty and status to advocate to

those autistic who may be mentally incapacitated. In this case I feel

it is necessary to let people know exactly what she claims to advocate

vs. what she actually advocates so that they can make their own minds

up.

The same goes with my persistence with speaking against Gareth. Here we

have an individual whose belief system (Satanism) mandates that he

works against religion. Some autistics are religious. Therefore, how

can Gareth claim to be working for them even when he is working against

them?

If he is doing this out of ignorance, then this suggests duality.

If he is doing this deliberately, this suggests duplicity.

Those who would support Gareth ought to be made clear of these fact in

no uncertain terms, and so I feel it is necessary to make it as clean

as possible.

" I also think you ought to stick to giving the information asked for,

and then leave Leif free to make up his own mind and do whatever he

pleases. This is getting close to badgering. "

Leif cannot make up his mind without the facts, and it may be that

others here arre also making up their own minds.

When Leif firmly says:

1) " I support Bonnie's BDSM stories depicting the mistreatment of

mentally incpacitated children and adults against their will even as

some some of the autistics she claims to support are mentally

incapacitated children and adults. "

And when Leif firmly says:

2) " I support an avowed Satanist deadicated to destroy religion even as

this Satanist claims to advocate religious autistic people. "

It will be clear to me that Leif has made his decision and then I will

be quiet.

Tom

Administrator

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

[Guest guest]

-Not meaning to barge in,but as a kinky person i think i may be able

to judge whether the stories are really " that bad " .i do have

standards,and while i oppose any kind of censorship of stories,i

think it is important to determine if these things could reflect

negatively on the Aspie community.May i please have the links and i

will post tasteful comments here as soon as possible? Kajira

-- In , " Inger Lorelei " <inglori@...>

wrote:

>

> I've sent you the links in private. It can be accessed via one of

the links

> posted at the AP links page.

>

> Inger

>

>

>

> Re: Re: For Tom & Inger ( & others)

Bringing

> together the leaders

>

>

> Tom:

> > I won't enter into a coalition with a Satanist. It goes against my

> > religion.

>

> I'm an atheist so I couldn't really care less about religious

aspects..

>

> > And I won't enter into a coalition with anyone who

> > promotes the sexual abuse and torture of mentally incapacitated

> > individuals. That goes against my morals and ethics.

>

> Can you please send me a link to this web-site. Here or

> in private. Even if it is true, it is not on the AP list and

> thus is not part of AP activities and ideals.

>

> Leif

>

[Guest guest]

-Not meaning to barge in,but as a kinky person i think i may be able

to judge whether the stories are really " that bad " .i do have

standards,and while i oppose any kind of censorship of stories,i

think it is important to determine if these things could reflect

negatively on the Aspie community.May i please have the links and i

will post tasteful comments here as soon as possible? Kajira

-- In , " Inger Lorelei " <inglori@...>

wrote:

>

> I've sent you the links in private. It can be accessed via one of

the links

> posted at the AP links page.

>

> Inger

>

>

>

> Re: Re: For Tom & Inger ( & others)

Bringing

> together the leaders

>

>

> Tom:

> > I won't enter into a coalition with a Satanist. It goes against my

> > religion.

>

> I'm an atheist so I couldn't really care less about religious

aspects..

>

> > And I won't enter into a coalition with anyone who

> > promotes the sexual abuse and torture of mentally incapacitated

> > individuals. That goes against my morals and ethics.

>

> Can you please send me a link to this web-site. Here or

> in private. Even if it is true, it is not on the AP list and

> thus is not part of AP activities and ideals.

>

> Leif

>

[Guest guest]

-i like the idea on your site,Inger,that Aspergers is a normal

variation(like being left-handed) but that various factors can mess

with Aspies and then they wind up with the more debilitating forms of

Autism.Rather than the usual view,that Aspies have a mild form of

Autism. Kajira

-- In , " Inger Lorelei " <inglori@...>

wrote:

>

> Leif:

> > As long as the basic autism phenotype is not considered a

disorder, I have

> > no problems

> with such forum. I do not like the idea of bashing advocate-site

like AFF.

>

> I'm sure intends to do no such thing, only explaining his

policy to

> us, here, since I ASKED about it.

>

> > They have a role too, because today's mainstream-views of autism

are

> > totally flawed. Without proper

> understanding of autism which mostly the advocacy-sites is

delivering, there

> can be no balanced view of AS either.

>

> And they have a " proper " understanding of autism??? When you're

hardly even

> allowed to mention that autism or AS may be anything but sign of

being an

> übermench.

>

> > I do think we should also take the comorbidities more seriously.

For

> > instance, I

> just found out that in a sample of 3000 autistic children, 1/3 had

too high

> iron

> levels. Why isn't anybody researching this and the possible

connection to

> Hemochromatosis?

>

> What exactly IS hemochomatosis? (I have always been more or less

anaemic.)

>

> > Why isn't anybody taking amalgam / mercury poisoning seriously?

>

> Because if they did, you would see law-suits that no dentist can

afford and

> we'd get a dental crisis.

>

> > We have " curebees " taking this issues seriously, but only to

demonstrate

> > their view of the causes of autism.

>

> Yes, unfortunately.

>

> > I rarely see advocacy groups taking these things seriously.

> I think we need to take these and many other issues more seriously.

> Better to prevent handicapped autistics than to shoot for

assistance when

> they

> already suffered from treatable damage.

>

> I don't think any of us are properly qualified. Autism is such a

complex

> question and there are already gazillions of groups out there both

trying to

> find a reason for it and providing services for those who are most

disabled.

>

> But how many care about all those aspies who fall through the

cracks and

> don't get the help they really need because they look and act " too

normal " -

> yet often not " normal " enough to avoid getting bullied and shut out

of the

> job market?

>

> Inger

>

[Guest guest]

I've sent you a link in private mail.

Inger

Re: For Tom & Inger ( & others) Bringing

together the leaders

-Not meaning to barge in,but as a kinky person i think i may be able

to judge whether the stories are really " that bad " .i do have

standards,and while i oppose any kind of censorship of stories,i

think it is important to determine if these things could reflect

negatively on the Aspie community.May i please have the links and i

will post tasteful comments here as soon as possible? Kajira

[Guest guest]

On 17 Mar 2006 Young wrote:

> A.F.F is very closed minded ...

I get the feeling that if you bring together any two of these

mini-groups or website writers you'll get three opinions.

But I believe that there is an on-line consensus about some

major issues, much as the political bloggers seem to have an on-

line consensus, at least within their broad political groupings.

Examples would be the harsh teaching technique (I forget what

it's called), and an anti-curbie sentiment.

- s

[Guest guest]

Stan, you mean ABA? Applied Behavioral Analysis?

It is correct that both ABA and curebie mentality is something that most of

us 'moderates' dislike as just as much as the radicals. Only difference is

in how we wish to deal with it.

The radicals seem to prefer a full-frontal attack; ridicule of non-aspies,

promoting Aspie superiority, and stirring up emotion. That may gain a lot of

attention, but is also likely to meet with strong resistance and defence.

Moderates may prefer to ask respectful questions, and politely informing of

alternative views. Showing by example, that we are not as disabled or

disordered as generally believed.

Actually, now that I spelled it out like this, I'm realizing that perhaps

both types are needed. Perhaps the radical groups are needed to actually

FIGHT the most pigheaded ABA users and curebies who are way too convinced

they are right to be interested in listening to anyone who is just polite?

And perhaps the moderates are needed to have sensible and mutually

respectful communication with those who are sensible and open-minded enough

to listen?

This would most certainly solve the dilemma, wouldn't it? Them they can do

their thing and we do ours, without either group needing to feel any

competition or whatever; as both are equally well filling their respective

niche?

Then all we need to do is to start a fully functional moderate advocacy

group and get started. I think it should consist of anyone who wanted to

join it, not just forum owners. Unlike the radical sites, mine and Tom's are

not advocacy sites, just forums for Aspies to get to know other Aspies.

Therefore I cannot speak for anyone who is part of my forum, only for

myself.

Inger

Re: Re: For Tom & Inger ( & others) Bringing

together the leaders

On 17 Mar 2006 Young wrote:

> A.F.F is very closed minded ...

I get the feeling that if you bring together any two of these

mini-groups or website writers you'll get three opinions.

But I believe that there is an on-line consensus about some

major issues, much as the political bloggers seem to have an on-

line consensus, at least within their broad political groupings.

Examples would be the harsh teaching technique (I forget what

it's called), and an anti-curbie sentiment.

- s

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Check the Links section for more FAM forums.