Milk Thistle and liver detox

May 4, 2006

Natasa,

You spanner putter! ;-)

I'll be very interested in hearing what Willis has to say if he gets

back to you. I am truly happy that you shared what you know about

this. You don't need to apologize at all. So much information that

is floating around out their regarding our ASD kids is only

theoretical that often we must just go with our gut, or with what we

see in our own child, or with the lesser of two evils sometimes.

And also, what was the " truth " a couple years ago may not be the

truth anymore, or maybe never was the " truth " for some people, so we

shouldn't be afraid to share information we have, even in the event

that it may turn out to be wrong eventually. We're here to help

each other, which includes trying to set each other straight now and

then.

How very wonderful of you to try to set the record straight for us.

Your candour is most appreciated, as is this information (yeah for

MT). Again, you have no need at all to apologize :-) You were

simply doing what we're all trying to do, and that is a very good

thing.

Warmly,

Anita

..

>

> Anita and Anne and others, first of all apologies as I believe it

was me

> who put spanner in the works with this one, at least on biomed-

europe

> list.

>

> This is how it went: I read in one of Willis Langford papers that,

and

> I'll quote him: " ...Milk Thistle enhances Phase I liver detox

pathways.

> In autism, these are usually over-reactive to Phase II.. so to

further

> enhance Phase I can be detrimental... "

>

> I then wanted to double check this and posted on biomed-europe, and

> Mandi's reply was that she had read the same thing (from the same

> source) and had raised the issue with Andy Cutler, who dismissed it

> straight away.

>

> Now, since then I have found out that Willis Langford is well

known for

> putting forward 'unfiltered' and unproven information, I have

tried a

> Pubmed search on this and could not find anyting to support his

claims -

> on the contrary, a couple of published papers, plus quite a few

> 'reviews' on the net talk about exactly the opposite: MT actually

> enhances Phase II, and inhibits Phase I, which is supposedly what

we

> want here.

>

> I have just emailed Willis (to give him a fair chance) but if he

does

> not respond I would say the claims are very much without ground!

>

> Gayatri, could it be that your DAN found that information from the

same

> source? Any way you could find out?

>

> Hope this helps and sorry again!

>

> Natasa

>

> p.s. here are some informative bits that relate to the above:

> http://www.viim.org/therapeutics/monographs/monograph.asp?

category=silyb\

> um

>

May 4, 2006

Natasa,

You spanner putter! ;-)

I'll be very interested in hearing what Willis has to say if he gets

back to you. I am truly happy that you shared what you know about

this. You don't need to apologize at all. So much information that

is floating around out their regarding our ASD kids is only

theoretical that often we must just go with our gut, or with what we

see in our own child, or with the lesser of two evils sometimes.

And also, what was the " truth " a couple years ago may not be the

truth anymore, or maybe never was the " truth " for some people, so we

shouldn't be afraid to share information we have, even in the event

that it may turn out to be wrong eventually. We're here to help

each other, which includes trying to set each other straight now and

then.

How very wonderful of you to try to set the record straight for us.

Your candour is most appreciated, as is this information (yeah for

MT). Again, you have no need at all to apologize :-) You were

simply doing what we're all trying to do, and that is a very good

thing.

Warmly,

Anita

..

>

> Anita and Anne and others, first of all apologies as I believe it

was me

> who put spanner in the works with this one, at least on biomed-

europe

> list.

>

> This is how it went: I read in one of Willis Langford papers that,

and

> I'll quote him: " ...Milk Thistle enhances Phase I liver detox

pathways.

> In autism, these are usually over-reactive to Phase II.. so to

further

> enhance Phase I can be detrimental... "

>

> I then wanted to double check this and posted on biomed-europe, and

> Mandi's reply was that she had read the same thing (from the same

> source) and had raised the issue with Andy Cutler, who dismissed it

> straight away.

>

> Now, since then I have found out that Willis Langford is well

known for

> putting forward 'unfiltered' and unproven information, I have

tried a

> Pubmed search on this and could not find anyting to support his

claims -

> on the contrary, a couple of published papers, plus quite a few

> 'reviews' on the net talk about exactly the opposite: MT actually

> enhances Phase II, and inhibits Phase I, which is supposedly what

we

> want here.

>

> I have just emailed Willis (to give him a fair chance) but if he

does

> not respond I would say the claims are very much without ground!

>

> Gayatri, could it be that your DAN found that information from the

same

> source? Any way you could find out?

>

> Hope this helps and sorry again!

>

> Natasa

>

> p.s. here are some informative bits that relate to the above:

> http://www.viim.org/therapeutics/monographs/monograph.asp?

category=silyb\

> um

>

May 4, 2006

Yup another Willis statement that figures…. His work / claims

opinions, has done this many of times amongst the bioboards

But I have heard of the product XYMOGEN mentioned a few times, Now if

someone may be kind enough to share a bit more on their experience

using this product or others that contain Phosphaline would

appreciate it.

Now that I have heard about it, but conflicting statements , I d

still like to know Is this stuff worth looking into. Also Interested

in

Are you also using milk thistle?

Did you ever compare the difference with PC and MT?

Do you ever test pH levels and compare if the body may be draining

acids ?

Thanks so much anything you have to share .

Kenny V

>

> Anita and Anne and others, first of all apologies as I believe it

was me

> who put spanner in the works with this one, at least on biomed-

europe

> list.

>

> This is how it went: I read in one of Willis Langford papers that,

and

> I'll quote him: " ...Milk Thistle enhances Phase I liver detox

pathways.

> In autism, these are usually over-reactive to Phase II.. so to

further

> enhance Phase I can be detrimental... "

>

> I then wanted to double check this and posted on biomed-europe, and

> Mandi's reply was that she had read the same thing (from the same

> source) and had raised the issue with Andy Cutler, who dismissed it

> straight away.

>

> Now, since then I have found out that Willis Langford is well

known for

> putting forward 'unfiltered' and unproven information, I have tried

a

> Pubmed search on this and could not find anyting to support his

claims -

> on the contrary, a couple of published papers, plus quite a few

> 'reviews' on the net talk about exactly the opposite: MT actually

> enhances Phase II, and inhibits Phase I, which is supposedly what we

> want here.

>

May 4, 2006

Yup another Willis statement that figures…. His work / claims

opinions, has done this many of times amongst the bioboards

But I have heard of the product XYMOGEN mentioned a few times, Now if

someone may be kind enough to share a bit more on their experience

using this product or others that contain Phosphaline would

appreciate it.

Now that I have heard about it, but conflicting statements , I d

still like to know Is this stuff worth looking into. Also Interested

in

Are you also using milk thistle?

Did you ever compare the difference with PC and MT?

Do you ever test pH levels and compare if the body may be draining

acids ?

Thanks so much anything you have to share .

Kenny V

>

> Anita and Anne and others, first of all apologies as I believe it

was me

> who put spanner in the works with this one, at least on biomed-

europe

> list.

>

> This is how it went: I read in one of Willis Langford papers that,

and

> I'll quote him: " ...Milk Thistle enhances Phase I liver detox

pathways.

> In autism, these are usually over-reactive to Phase II.. so to

further

> enhance Phase I can be detrimental... "

>

> I then wanted to double check this and posted on biomed-europe, and

> Mandi's reply was that she had read the same thing (from the same

> source) and had raised the issue with Andy Cutler, who dismissed it

> straight away.

>

> Now, since then I have found out that Willis Langford is well

known for

> putting forward 'unfiltered' and unproven information, I have tried

a

> Pubmed search on this and could not find anyting to support his

claims -

> on the contrary, a couple of published papers, plus quite a few

> 'reviews' on the net talk about exactly the opposite: MT actually

> enhances Phase II, and inhibits Phase I, which is supposedly what we

> want here.

>

May 17, 2006

Post a thread on this a few weeks ago, my DAN got back to me about

the milk thistle controversy. From what I understand it seems to me

that you better have the Phase II supports in place prior to using

the milk thistle - you don't want to " up " Phase I even more unless

you are sure that Phase II can follow through adequately. She gives

her recommendation at the end.

HTH

Gayatri

>>>>>>>>>

Hi Gayatri:

This is what I know about milk thistle:

The confusion started with one animal study that showed that High

doses (>800mg) may cause a slowing of phase II. No other studies

have backed this up. Silymarin enhances the ability of phase I,

increases glutathione and increases bile production. Phase II is

dependent on sulfur bearing amino acids (taurine, cysteine) as well

as glutathione. So potentially, in a person with a fast phase I and

a slow phase II, milk thistle could enhance phase I even more,

although its effects on phase II would probably be negligible. That

is only a theory though. Clinically it is wise to combine milk

thistle with other liver enhancers and cover all the bases.

Hope that helps!

Reid, N.D.

May 17, 2006

Thanks for following up on that Gayatri.

Anne

>

> Post a thread on this a few weeks ago, my DAN got back to me about

> the milk thistle controversy. From what I understand it seems to

me

> that you better have the Phase II supports in place prior to using

> the milk thistle - you don't want to " up " Phase I even more unless

> you are sure that Phase II can follow through adequately. She

gives

> her recommendation at the end.

>

> HTH

> Gayatri

>

> >>>>>>>>>

>

> Hi Gayatri:

>

> This is what I know about milk thistle:

>

> The confusion started with one animal study that showed that High

> doses (>800mg) may cause a slowing of phase II. No other studies

> have backed this up. Silymarin enhances the ability of phase I,

> increases glutathione and increases bile production. Phase II is

> dependent on sulfur bearing amino acids (taurine, cysteine) as

well

> as glutathione. So potentially, in a person with a fast phase I

and

> a slow phase II, milk thistle could enhance phase I even more,

> although its effects on phase II would probably be negligible.

That

> is only a theory though. Clinically it is wise to combine milk

> thistle with other liver enhancers and cover all the bases.

>

> Hope that helps!

>

> Reid, N.D.

>

May 17, 2006

Thanks for following up on that Gayatri.

Anne

>

> Post a thread on this a few weeks ago, my DAN got back to me about

> the milk thistle controversy. From what I understand it seems to

me

> that you better have the Phase II supports in place prior to using

> the milk thistle - you don't want to " up " Phase I even more unless

> you are sure that Phase II can follow through adequately. She

gives

> her recommendation at the end.

>

> HTH

> Gayatri

>

> >>>>>>>>>

>

> Hi Gayatri:

>

> This is what I know about milk thistle:

>

> The confusion started with one animal study that showed that High

> doses (>800mg) may cause a slowing of phase II. No other studies

> have backed this up. Silymarin enhances the ability of phase I,

> increases glutathione and increases bile production. Phase II is

> dependent on sulfur bearing amino acids (taurine, cysteine) as

well

> as glutathione. So potentially, in a person with a fast phase I

and

> a slow phase II, milk thistle could enhance phase I even more,

> although its effects on phase II would probably be negligible.

That

> is only a theory though. Clinically it is wise to combine milk

> thistle with other liver enhancers and cover all the bases.

>

> Hope that helps!

>

> Reid, N.D.

>

May 17, 2006

I wrote to Willis Langford to find out where he got that information re

MS enhancing phase I detox, here is his answer:

JANA, Vol. 2, No. 1.

" An in vitro screening study of 196 natural products for toxicity and

efficacy. " Dr. Darrell See, Immunologist

I haven't read that particular study (you have to buy the

subscribtion/article) but if it showed anything then that would be one

and only study standing against at least three of four others that

showed that MS inhibits phase I and helps phase II. ... it comes back to

the question of choosing what to believe I suppose...

Natasa

>

> Post a thread on this a few weeks ago, my DAN got back to me about

> the milk thistle controversy. From what I understand it seems to me

> that you better have the Phase II supports in place prior to using

> the milk thistle - you don't want to " up " Phase I even more unless

> you are sure that Phase II can follow through adequately. She gives

> her recommendation at the end.

>

> HTH

> Gayatri

>

> >>>>>>>>>

>

> Hi Gayatri:

>

> This is what I know about milk thistle:

>

> The confusion started with one animal study that showed that High

> doses (>800mg) may cause a slowing of phase II. No other studies

> have backed this up. Silymarin enhances the ability of phase I,

> increases glutathione and increases bile production. Phase II is

> dependent on sulfur bearing amino acids (taurine, cysteine) as well

> as glutathione. So potentially, in a person with a fast phase I and

> a slow phase II, milk thistle could enhance phase I even more,

> although its effects on phase II would probably be negligible. That

> is only a theory though. Clinically it is wise to combine milk

> thistle with other liver enhancers and cover all the bases.

>

> Hope that helps!

>

> Reid, N.D.

>

May 17, 2006