Re: I consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers

February 26, 2006

I do have a 4.0 average in school, I am in my 20's and

I am partaking in several courses of research-

--- Hunter <us2china2@...> wrote:

> Dylan, yes we do read what you write, but we can not

> read your mind. There are times that I have to read

> your posts more than once to understand what you are

> trying to say, and then I'm not sure if I really

> understand. this is not faulting you, or your

> thought process, but is just one of the problems

> with any comunication. Please bare with us.

> Chris

>

> Rath <kdrath@...> wrote:

> Why yes I do- does any actually read what I write?

>

> --- Jackie on wrote:

>

> > WELL.. everyone,, just remember that the 4th

> leading

> > cause of death in the US is PROPERLY prescribed

> and

> > PROPERLY taken PRESCRIPTION MEDICATIONS...

> > YES herbs can be dangerous,, but do you NOT think

> > that PEGGED INF IS dangerous as well???

> >

> > Rath wrote:

> > Hello everyone, here is a good website for

> > starters

> > http://www.valleyskeptic.com/altmed.htm

> >

> > --- anne wrote:

> >

> > > , please be reassured that I didn't take

> any

> > of

> > > this debate as being negative or argumentative

> at

> > > all! As someone else said, debate is healthy and

> > I

> > > agree! I guess we're all just a little cautious

> > to

> > > make sure that debates don't disintegrate into

> > > slanging matches that's all. Noone was pointing

> > the

> > > finger at anyone in particular!

> > >

> > > Love

> > > anne

> > > Re: I consider

> > > myself proof that herbal remedies DO help

> > hepatitis

> > > C sufferers

> > >

> > > I am sorry anne, I didn't take it that way-

> > I

> > > guess I just believe that this post is for

> > > gathering

> > > information so we all can sift through it and

> > > learn

> > > about hep c. I have learned a lot from all of

> > your

> > > testaments as well as all of the discussions and

> > > studies. I am very thankful to everyone and I am

> > > sincerely saying that I don't mean to debate-

> > > sometimes its sad that I am called on for

> > arguing

> > > or

> > > what not when I was just having a different

> > > opinion

> > > and trying to show all of the views of the

> > members

> > > so

> > > we all can make choices with each others help. I

> > > appreciate the help from all of you and I just

> > > wish my

> > > attempts to present my view wasn't (this isn't

> > > directed at anyone especially you anne- just

> > > expressing this to the group) always construed

> > as

> > > negative or disagreeable. I just believe that

> > info

> > > is

> > > power and that when one side is being shown for

> > > days

> > > that this isn't really helping others

> > necessarily.

> > > So

> > > I invite disagreement b/c we all deserve all of

> > > the

> > > aspects...so please everyone see that I am just

> > > having

> > > an opinion and sometimes I will personally

> > attack

> > > after I tried to make it non personal. I am

> > human

> > > so

> > > please forgive me but I don't think that having

> > > info

> > > presented is debating, it is responding to that

> > > with

> > > anger that is debating. Sorry if I offended you

> > > anne, thanks everyone for being out there in

> > > cyber

> > > space b/c I have needed all of you even when I

> > was

> > > silent- I hope there is a cure some day for all

> > of

> > > us

> > > - no matter what that cure ends up looking like

> > I

> > > wish

> > > it for all of you :-)

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

February 26, 2006

, please,, lets stop this on this forum,, if you wish to continue this discussion with dylan, please take it to email, ok? ALRIGHT,, no more on this topic right now,, ok?? thanks jaxHunter <us2china2@...> wrote: Dylan, yes we do read what you write, but we can not read your mind. There are times that I have to read your posts more than once to understand what you are trying to say, and then I'm not sure if I really understand. this is not faulting you, or your thought process, but is just one of the problems with any comunication. Please bare with us. Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: Why yes I do- does any actually read what

I write?--- Jackie on wrote:> WELL.. everyone,, just remember that the 4th leading> cause of death in the US is PROPERLY prescribed and> PROPERLY taken PRESCRIPTION MEDICATIONS... > YES herbs can be dangerous,, but do you NOT think> that PEGGED INF IS dangerous as well??? > > Rath wrote:> Hello everyone, here is a good website for> starters> http://www.valleyskeptic.com/altmed.htm> > --- anne wrote:> > > , please be reassured that I didn't take any> of> > this debate as being negative or argumentative at> > all! As someone else said, debate is healthy and> I> > agree! I guess we're all just a little cautious> to> > make sure that debates don't disintegrate into> > slanging matches that's all. Noone was pointing>

the> > finger at anyone in particular!> > > > Love> > anne> > Re: I consider> > myself proof that herbal remedies DO help> hepatitis> > C sufferers> > > > > > I am sorry anne, I didn't take it that way-> I> > guess I just believe that this post is for> > gathering> > information so we all can sift through it and> > learn> > about hep c. I have learned a lot from all of> your> > testaments as well as all of the discussions and> > studies. I am very thankful to everyone and I am> > sincerely saying that I don't mean to debate-> > sometimes its sad that I am

called on for> arguing> > or> > what not when I was just having a different> > opinion> > and trying to show all of the views of the> members> > so> > we all can make choices with each others help. I> > appreciate the help from all of you and I just> > wish my> > attempts to present my view wasn't (this isn't> > directed at anyone especially you anne- just> > expressing this to the group) always construed> as> > negative or disagreeable. I just believe that> info> > is> > power and that when one side is being shown for> > days> > that this isn't really helping others> necessarily.> > So> > I invite disagreement b/c we all deserve all of> > the> > aspects...so please everyone see that I am just> > having> > an opinion and

sometimes I will personally> attack> > after I tried to make it non personal. I am> human> > so> > please forgive me but I don't think that having> > info> > presented is debating, it is responding to that> > with> > anger that is debating. Sorry if I offended you> > anne, thanks everyone for being out there in> > cyber> > space b/c I have needed all of you even when I> was> > silent- I hope there is a cure some day for all> of> > us> > - no matter what that cure ends up looking like> I> > wish> > it for all of you :-)> > > __________________________________________________>

February 26, 2006

I won't dispute your numbers. "a billion dollar industry" But I would ask you to campare that to the dollar value of the western medicine doctors, phamaceutical companies, hospitals, and medical insurance companies, all combined. Now you can get an idea of the relative size of herbal medicine. Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: You don't need to shout but I am sorry- the drugcompanies don't have everything to do with testing.There are universities and plenty of other ways to getmoney to investigate efficacy. Good scientists come upwith a hypothesis and disprove or prove this. If itwere not a billion dollar industry I might see whereyou are coming from but herbs, herbalists and Chinesedoctors are a billion dollar industry so I can't eatwhat you are saying--- Jackie on

wrote:> Yes you are right,, they DO need more testing,, but> as long as the drug companies are in charge of what> gets out there ,, they will NOT be testing in any> significant way as it would be giving their money> away .. and most if not all of the tests that show> negative effects of "alternative" meds are run BY> the PHARMYS OR the FDA which have a VESTED interest> in the PHARMIES.....UNTIL they take the MONEY out of> things,, dont expect much to change..There are good> and bad in both western and alternative> treatments... just look at ALL the side effects of> PEGGED INF,, for example, and IF you saw these kinds> of side effects with a NATURAL substance, IT WOULD> BE PULLED, and the docs would NOT BE able to> prescribe it,, IF IT WERE NATURAL.... but because> its from the pharmies,, they allow it.. and> sometimes the treatments ARE worse

than the> disease... > just my 2 cents,, not trying to make anyone mad...> > brain_child846 wrote:> > Science is a way of verifying information and> > everything you say is your word. > > Amen to scientific verification, for herbs or drugs.> The problem is, > some people have closed their mind to one or the> other. When > investigating the unknown, the outcome is> unpredictable. > > a bunch of herbs out there that> > don't have a lot of side effects there you go> > again...what proof? simple things such as licorice> do> > have side effects. > > Licorice root in particular is one herb with> virtually no side > effects used in moderate amounts. Licorice root is> unique and stands > by itself as one of the great adjutant herbs, that> is, it helps > improve the

efficacy of almost any herbal formula> and is thus a part > of nearly all formulas. The trials showing potential> harmful side > effects were done with dose levels way in excess of> amounts people > would take for tonic effects. I'm not sure the dose> level used in > the study that showed licorice root reducing liver> cancer by 50% in > hep c patients, if I remember correctly. I could> cite the study if > you like. > > Medical research is something to be proud of. Herbal> traditions are > part of our human heritage, also something to be> proud of. We need > more testing and probably a better way to classify> alternative > treatments, partly to protect people. One cardinal> rule about herbs > is that more is not necessarily better. Until> herbalists are more > available, people will end up taking their chances.>

I hate to see > some companies making sensational claims about herbs> and raking in > millions. Something is wrong there. I used to brew> my own Chinese > formulas, which is totally different but still> something that needs > more testing.> > Okay, that's all I'm going to say about herbs! Nice> discussion, > though.> > Pete> > > > > > > It's a pleasure having you join in our> conversations. We hope you have found the support> you need with us. > > If you are using email for your posts, for easy> access to our group, just click the link--> Hepatitis C/> > Happy Posting > > > >

February 26, 2006

, please,,,,,,,,,,,take it to email ,, Hunter <us2china2@...> wrote: I won't dispute your numbers. "a billion dollar industry" But I would ask you to campare that to the dollar value of the western medicine doctors, phamaceutical companies, hospitals, and medical insurance companies, all combined. Now you can get an idea of the relative size of herbal medicine. Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: You don't need to shout but I am sorry- the drugcompanies don't have everything to do with testing.There are universities and plenty of other ways to getmoney to investigate efficacy. Good scientists come upwith a hypothesis and disprove or prove this. If itwere not a billion

dollar industry I might see whereyou are coming from but herbs, herbalists and Chinesedoctors are a billion dollar industry so I can't eatwhat you are saying--- Jackie on wrote:> Yes you are right,, they DO need more testing,, but> as long as the drug companies are in charge of what> gets out there ,, they will NOT be testing in any> significant way as it would be giving their money> away .. and most if not all of the tests that show> negative effects of "alternative" meds are run BY> the PHARMYS OR the FDA which have a VESTED interest> in the PHARMIES.....UNTIL they take the MONEY out of> things,, dont expect much to change..There are good> and bad in both western and alternative> treatments... just look at ALL the side effects of> PEGGED INF,, for example, and IF you saw these kinds> of side effects with a NATURAL substance, IT WOULD>

BE PULLED, and the docs would NOT BE able to> prescribe it,, IF IT WERE NATURAL.... but because> its from the pharmies,, they allow it.. and> sometimes the treatments ARE worse than the> disease... > just my 2 cents,, not trying to make anyone mad...> > brain_child846 wrote:> > Science is a way of verifying information and> > everything you say is your word. > > Amen to scientific verification, for herbs or drugs.> The problem is, > some people have closed their mind to one or the> other. When > investigating the unknown, the outcome is> unpredictable. > > a bunch of herbs out there that> > don't have a lot of side effects there you go> > again...what proof? simple things such as licorice> do> > have side effects. > > Licorice root in particular is one herb with> virtually

no side > effects used in moderate amounts. Licorice root is> unique and stands > by itself as one of the great adjutant herbs, that> is, it helps > improve the efficacy of almost any herbal formula> and is thus a part > of nearly all formulas. The trials showing potential> harmful side > effects were done with dose levels way in excess of> amounts people > would take for tonic effects. I'm not sure the dose> level used in > the study that showed licorice root reducing liver> cancer by 50% in > hep c patients, if I remember correctly. I could> cite the study if > you like. > > Medical research is something to be proud of. Herbal> traditions are > part of our human heritage, also something to be> proud of. We need > more testing and probably a better way to classify> alternative > treatments, partly to protect

people. One cardinal> rule about herbs > is that more is not necessarily better. Until> herbalists are more > available, people will end up taking their chances.> I hate to see > some companies making sensational claims about herbs> and raking in > millions. Something is wrong there. I used to brew> my own Chinese > formulas, which is totally different but still> something that needs > more testing.> > Okay, that's all I'm going to say about herbs! Nice> discussion, > though.> > Pete> > > > > > > It's a pleasure having you join in our> conversations. We hope you have found the support> you need with us. > > If you are using email for your posts, for easy> access to our group, just click the link--> Hepatitis C/> >

Happy Posting > > > >

February 26, 2006

That's GREAT !!!! If they can't detect the numbers, that means you ARE "undetectactable!" That is fantastic news. Conga line for !!!elizabethnv1 <elizabethnv1@...> wrote: Guess what Jackie , my viral load is so low the test they used couldnt detect the numbers.So Daymon wants me to continue the tx for as long as I can . This treatment is aweful but it looks like I may make it to undectable if I just hang in there a little longer . Re: I consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers This is all

great but you know this issue isn't blackor white. I used to be all for herbs and even annoyedat people who couldn't understand the truth about themetc. However- now I have quickly changed my mind forseveral reasons. First of all- many herbs can bedeadly - if you are taking them and need an emergencytransplant certain herbs will contribute to rejectingthat transplant. Others have deadly affects withcombinations of western medicine- for the drugcompanies- well you should be happy that we have anFDA b/c other countries that don't are largely at riskfrom the foods and medicines that they have which gountested. It's not all 'poor' herb companies b/c thericher drug companies can test their product and theherbs can't...In fact the drug companies that pay forthe FDA approval at least have to list the known sideaffects and it even explains what combinations can belethal..where the herb companies can continueadvertising

their product (many times falsely) andthey are not responsible if you are at risk or ifsomething happens to you. Many don't want to have theexpensive tests done b/c their product doesn'tactually work and they don't want to have to show thatto people. I am not saying this to be against yourherbs but people should get the other side b/c therehas been some biases on some parts of you all- thingsin this world aren't always separated into 'good' or'bad' there are grey areas...and a lot of drugcompanies aren't these evil doers trying to get onlyyour money....many go out of business for theinvestments in their drugs and they (even with thehigh costs) go our of business b/c of the needed testsand the fda approval etc. This takes years and itdoesn't suggest that we see all that's going on. Wesee a drug is expensive so we automatically assumethat it means scam. This is hardly the case. Herbscan't back up their claims so

the people are at risk.Thanks, --- anne <kanga2@...> wrote:> LOL! I just *knew* wouldn't be able to let> that post pass! Great, well thought out reply there> > anneJackie

Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.

February 27, 2006

OH I agree with you chris, this is GREAT!!! Liz is my big sister,, and I have got to help her,, but I can tell you this news is as good as it was when I heard that I was undetectible,, I have prayed a LOT for her,, and IM just grateful,, Well now IM going to REALLY go to bed now, hahaha been tryin all nite,, and I am very tired , this stuff with my father is very emotionally draining for me,, as you remember chris,, love ya,, meHunter <us2china2@...> wrote: That's GREAT !!!! If they can't detect the numbers, that means you ARE "undetectactable!" That is fantastic news. Conga line for !!!elizabethnv1 <elizabethnv1@...> wrote: Guess what Jackie , my viral load is so low the test they used couldnt detect the numbers.So Daymon wants me to continue the tx for as long as I can . This treatment is aweful but it looks like I may make it to undectable if I just hang in there a little longer . Re: I consider myself proof that herbal remedies DO help hepatitis C sufferers This is all great but you know this issue isn't blackor white. I used to be all for herbs and even annoyedat people who couldn't understand the truth about themetc. However- now I have quickly changed my mind forseveral reasons. First of all- many herbs can bedeadly - if you are taking them and need an emergencytransplant certain herbs will contribute to rejectingthat

transplant. Others have deadly affects withcombinations of western medicine- for the drugcompanies- well you should be happy that we have anFDA b/c other countries that don't are largely at riskfrom the foods and medicines that they have which gountested. It's not all 'poor' herb companies b/c thericher drug companies can test their product and theherbs can't...In fact the drug companies that pay forthe FDA approval at least have to list the known sideaffects and it even explains what combinations can belethal..where the herb companies can continueadvertising their product (many times falsely) andthey are not responsible if you are at risk or ifsomething happens to you. Many don't want to have theexpensive tests done b/c their product doesn'tactually work and they don't want to have to show thatto people. I am not saying this to be against yourherbs but people should get the other side b/c therehas been some

biases on some parts of you all- thingsin this world aren't always separated into 'good' or'bad' there are grey areas...and a lot of drugcompanies aren't these evil doers trying to get onlyyour money....many go out of business for theinvestments in their drugs and they (even with thehigh costs) go our of business b/c of the needed testsand the fda approval etc. This takes years and itdoesn't suggest that we see all that's going on. Wesee a drug is expensive so we automatically assumethat it means scam. This is hardly the case. Herbscan't back up their claims so the people are at risk.Thanks, --- anne <kanga2@...> wrote:> LOL! I just *knew* wouldn't be able to let> that post pass! Great, well thought out reply there> > anneJackie Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. Jackie

February 27, 2006

I completely agree. Unfortuately, I read the posts as they come in, so I've sent some more today, before realizing this was hurting someone's feelings. I'm sorry I posted before reading all 74 emails today. 74 is a little out of hand for me, since I have to look up most English words in the dictionary. Peace Dylan! Peace and love everyone! GONGXI GONGXI GONGXI ! Happy tears I don't mind so much. XOXO P.S. gongxi = congratulationsJackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote: I agree with you regarding the FDA etc,, but maybe we better let this go for now,, things are getting dylan upset and that is not good for anyone,, Lets just agree to disagree,, ok? hugs hon meHunter <us2china2@...> wrote: Dylan... it seems I made the same mistake once before, probably because you using what looks like Rath's email address. I'm sorry to have forgotten. I forget lots of things. Herbs are not drugs that are produced in controlled settings like a lab. It would be impossible to quantify the amount of the active ingredient in a given portion of most any herb, because they can be grown in different places and circumstances. The big drug companies don't pay for FDA approval because they want to be sure their drugs are safe. They pay because they have to! The FDA does not require the same of suppliments it considers safe, which is what the FDA considers most herbs to be. The acronym FDA stands for Food and Drug

Administration. Foods do not require the same warning lables as drugs. But they do test foods for public safety, and they have given thier ok to every suppliment and herb sold in America. Naturapaths are making a comeback in America. If you talk to one or read about the history of this field of medicine, you will probably find out how the AMA brought about the near extinction of alternative medicine in America. We can have peace. But while I have tried to post reason, you have called my "word" questionable, and accused me of fabrication and twisting your words. That's not nice! I only countered your claims with logic, not slander. I questioned the study mentioned in the original post, and agreed that the findings were inconclusive. I showed why I felt the study was flawed. Nowhere did I make remark to your character. Goodday. Eat herbs,

sleep well, be real! Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: Not coerced just not paying to have their medicineproved that it worked. Anyways- we know how we feeland I want you to have good health and others. Wecould go on and on and on so I want to thank you forengaging and I may seem like I come across a certainway but that is where we become lost in translationb/c of the language of email....so thank you for yourtime and I am appreciative of your thoughts and ofyour knowledge and I think this could go on but Iwould rather hug and say it's nice to have a debatewith an equal hepper who is searching like me foranswers and good health for others. Take care- and Iam a girl named Dylan :-)--- Hunter wrote:> You are trying to tell me that the producers

of> herbs in America bought, or somehow coerced the FDA> into looking the other way?> G'night .> > Rath wrote:> Not really b/c who draws the line of> natural?> and there are studies on milk and we even know it's> b/c of ecoli in the large intestine which breaks> lactose sugars down for you if you cannot break it> down with an enzyme in the duodenum. The fact is> there> aren't warnings for herbs in our country and this is> what is real. No studies or no warnings. fact. the> FDA> does think they are dangerous but the herb producers> want them out of the story. so they are out of the> story. this is a fact. people get offended if people> say they are dangerous b/c they say we are out to> sabotage what is good and natural. but if western> drugs are bad for us it's not wrong to explain this> to>

people (with scientific studies mind you) if they> kill> people many (not all not wanting that debate) they> are> taken off the shelf unlike the herbs. fact.> > --- Hunter wrote:> > > I'm just going to copy and paste this, 'cause I've> > said it too many times before. ", I have said> > many times that herbs, and all other medicines> > should only be used with proper supervision." By> > your reasoning every box of salt should have a> > warning label that eating too much can be harmful,> > or every box of baking soda have a warning not to> > eat this and drink vinegar. Pencils and pens can> be> > deadly. Should we have government agencies> spending> > tax dollars to protect us? If herbs and dietary> > supplements are dangerous, why doesn't the FDA> think> > so? The same reason they don't

think vinegar is> > dangerous. Milk is dangerous if you are allergic. > > The same with eggs, wheat, and.... oh forget it!> > You can construe that cocaine is natural, or even> > LSD, since it naturally occures in the brain. But> I> > think you and everyone else here knows neither> > cocaine nor LSD is natural as I use the word.> > > > Rath wrote:> > That's great what you have to say but I didn't say> > misused or abused. Some people simply use them as> > the> > bottle says and this is enough to be considered> > misuse> > b/c there is not indication that there are deadly> > side> > effects when combined with other herbs or> medicines.> > In a great world many people would do there> research> > but this is a product being sold on the market> that> > has beautiful

packaging so you grab that option> over> > another. Science is a way of verifying information> > and> > everything you say is your word. I have seen> claims> > that things work but these are mostly on sites> that> > are trying to sell their products. Just because> > things> > are 'natural' doesn't mean that they are safe for> > our> > bodies. Poisonous berries are natural, cocaine is> > natural, lava is natural. I am not disputing the> use> > but it is unfair to say that science isn't for our> > benefit. If my father is diagnosed with cancer I> > would> > rather use something that has scientifically> proven> > to> > work rather than some claims of herbs here or> there.> > Even deadly western medicine has worked on a few> > people but that isn't enough to verify

that it> > should> > be used. But you could argue what is natural b/c> > everything on this earth is natural. every> chemical> > compound that is combined with science is natural.> > Changing elements and rearranging the chemistry is> > still natural. I am only saying this not for you> who> > is already convinced but for the other silent> > members> > who should have each side of the story so they can> > think both sides through and make a choice that is> > good for them (whether this be herbs or western> > medicine). Well to respond to another one of your> > statements about you don't need to list the> mistakes> > that they have made- I am not on the side of the> > govt.> > etc. but the same could be said about the mistakes> > that herb producers have made. It's not all a> bunch>

> of> > beautiful people growing beautiful things, many> > million dollar corporations have taken over the> > companies and mass produce the product b/c they> > don't> > have to worry about the law suits etc. > > When you say if I grew a bunch of herbs out there> > that> > don't have a lot of side effects there you go> > again...what proof? simple things such as licorice> > do> > have side effects. Loving nature (which I do) and> > the> > beauty in mother nature and planting does not have> > anything to do with it. In fact this is unfair b/c> > its> > not nature vs. chemicals. I find my own 'god' in> > science which is beautiful etc. and this is very> > personal...I love to garden I love nature and I> > consider since I am a person that my roots would> > establish that I am part of

this. Not wanting to> > take> > herbs does not have anything to do with my love of> > nature. So this has nothing to do with anything. I> > am> > a liberal green party environmentalist so you are> > preaching to the choir about nature and this is> not> > the point. I just think we all get stuck in a> > paradigm> > and we are just as bad as the other side. We only> > see> > our point of view which makes it impossible to> have> > a> > fair view of the other side. For example, if I do> > something bad do I reduce myself to that bad thing> > or> > a combination of everything? I don't think herbs> are> > all bad and I don't think science is all bad. I> know> > many people who work on drugs b/c they have had a> > family member die from the disorder and they want>

to> > find a cure. That doesn't sound evil to me. > > > > --- Hunter wrote:> > > > > , I have said many times that herbs, and> all> > > other medicines should only be used with proper> > > supervision. So here we agree. Everything can be> > > deadly if abused or misused.> > > As for the FDA, I don't think I need to start> > > listing the errors they have made, nor the> > medicines> > > they have recalled after declaring them safe.> They> > > rely on the information the drug companies give> > > them. > > > You end by saying that "Herbs can't back up> their> > > claims so the people are at risk." Hmmm True> > > enough I guess. But herbs are not patented, and> > are> > > widely available for anyone to grow for> >

themselves. > > > An herb grown in CA will have different> properties> > > than the same species grown in Canada. The soil> is> > > different, the air and water. > > > If you did a study of all drugs, I bet you would> > > find there is a large number of drugs out there> > with> > > very few side effects, and that many of them are> > > derived from plants, fungus, or some other> > naturally> > > occuring substance. Mother Nature/God/Evolution> > > provided us with natural remedies for most> natural> > > illnesses. Death's Head, a type of very toxic> > > mushroom, has a natural antidote. Milk Thistle.> > > Science causes us to disbelieve all that it can> > > not prove. I wonder if science can quantify the> > > effect of love on cooking, or teaching, or>

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February 27, 2006

Thanks for teaching us some chinese,, Did I tell you chris that I am learning Taiko drumming? It started in China as a way for one community to correspond with another one,,, I have learned how to count to 10 as we do when we practice our exercises,, and we always bow into the drumming circle with Ohio gozamias,,, heheh Hunter <us2china2@...> wrote: I completely agree. Unfortuately, I read the posts as they come in, so I've sent some more today, before realizing this was hurting someone's feelings. I'm sorry I posted before reading all 74 emails today. 74 is a little out of hand for me, since I have to look up most English words in the dictionary. Peace Dylan! Peace and love everyone! GONGXI GONGXI

GONGXI ! Happy tears I don't mind so much. XOXO P.S. gongxi = congratulationsJackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote: I agree with you regarding the FDA etc,, but maybe we better let this go for now,, things are getting dylan upset and that is not good for anyone,, Lets just agree to disagree,, ok? hugs hon meHunter <us2china2@...> wrote: Dylan... it seems I made the same mistake once before, probably because you using what looks like Rath's email address. I'm sorry to have forgotten. I forget lots of things. Herbs are not drugs

that are produced in controlled settings like a lab. It would be impossible to quantify the amount of the active ingredient in a given portion of most any herb, because they can be grown in different places and circumstances. The big drug companies don't pay for FDA approval because they want to be sure their drugs are safe. They pay because they have to! The FDA does not require the same of suppliments it considers safe, which is what the FDA considers most herbs to be. The acronym FDA stands for Food and Drug Administration. Foods do not require the same warning lables as drugs. But they do test foods for public safety, and they have given thier ok to every suppliment and herb sold in America. Naturapaths are making a comeback in America. If you talk to one or read about the history of this field of medicine, you will probably find out how the AMA brought about the near extinction of alternative

medicine in America. We can have peace. But while I have tried to post reason, you have called my "word" questionable, and accused me of fabrication and twisting your words. That's not nice! I only countered your claims with logic, not slander. I questioned the study mentioned in the original post, and agreed that the findings were inconclusive. I showed why I felt the study was flawed. Nowhere did I make remark to your character. Goodday. Eat herbs, sleep well, be real! Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: Not coerced just not paying to have their medicineproved that it worked. Anyways- we know how we feeland I want you to have good health and others. Wecould go on and on and on so I want to thank you

forengaging and I may seem like I come across a certainway but that is where we become lost in translationb/c of the language of email....so thank you for yourtime and I am appreciative of your thoughts and ofyour knowledge and I think this could go on but Iwould rather hug and say it's nice to have a debatewith an equal hepper who is searching like me foranswers and good health for others. Take care- and Iam a girl named Dylan :-)--- Hunter wrote:> You are trying to tell me that the producers of> herbs in America bought, or somehow coerced the FDA> into looking the other way?> G'night .> > Rath wrote:> Not really b/c who draws the line of> natural?> and there are studies on milk and we even know it's> b/c of ecoli in the large intestine which breaks> lactose sugars down for you if you cannot break

it> down with an enzyme in the duodenum. The fact is> there> aren't warnings for herbs in our country and this is> what is real. No studies or no warnings. fact. the> FDA> does think they are dangerous but the herb producers> want them out of the story. so they are out of the> story. this is a fact. people get offended if people> say they are dangerous b/c they say we are out to> sabotage what is good and natural. but if western> drugs are bad for us it's not wrong to explain this> to> people (with scientific studies mind you) if they> kill> people many (not all not wanting that debate) they> are> taken off the shelf unlike the herbs. fact.> > --- Hunter wrote:> > > I'm just going to copy and paste this, 'cause I've> > said it too many times before. ", I have said> > many times that herbs, and all other

medicines> > should only be used with proper supervision." By> > your reasoning every box of salt should have a> > warning label that eating too much can be harmful,> > or every box of baking soda have a warning not to> > eat this and drink vinegar. Pencils and pens can> be> > deadly. Should we have government agencies> spending> > tax dollars to protect us? If herbs and dietary> > supplements are dangerous, why doesn't the FDA> think> > so? The same reason they don't think vinegar is> > dangerous. Milk is dangerous if you are allergic. > > The same with eggs, wheat, and.... oh forget it!> > You can construe that cocaine is natural, or even> > LSD, since it naturally occures in the brain. But> I> > think you and everyone else here knows neither> > cocaine nor LSD is natural as I use the word.> >

> > Rath wrote:> > That's great what you have to say but I didn't say> > misused or abused. Some people simply use them as> > the> > bottle says and this is enough to be considered> > misuse> > b/c there is not indication that there are deadly> > side> > effects when combined with other herbs or> medicines.> > In a great world many people would do there> research> > but this is a product being sold on the market> that> > has beautiful packaging so you grab that option> over> > another. Science is a way of verifying information> > and> > everything you say is your word. I have seen> claims> > that things work but these are mostly on sites> that> > are trying to sell their products. Just because> > things> > are 'natural' doesn't mean that they are

safe for> > our> > bodies. Poisonous berries are natural, cocaine is> > natural, lava is natural. I am not disputing the> use> > but it is unfair to say that science isn't for our> > benefit. If my father is diagnosed with cancer I> > would> > rather use something that has scientifically> proven> > to> > work rather than some claims of herbs here or> there.> > Even deadly western medicine has worked on a few> > people but that isn't enough to verify that it> > should> > be used. But you could argue what is natural b/c> > everything on this earth is natural. every> chemical> > compound that is combined with science is natural.> > Changing elements and rearranging the chemistry is> > still natural. I am only saying this not for you> who> > is already convinced but for the

other silent> > members> > who should have each side of the story so they can> > think both sides through and make a choice that is> > good for them (whether this be herbs or western> > medicine). Well to respond to another one of your> > statements about you don't need to list the> mistakes> > that they have made- I am not on the side of the> > govt.> > etc. but the same could be said about the mistakes> > that herb producers have made. It's not all a> bunch> > of> > beautiful people growing beautiful things, many> > million dollar corporations have taken over the> > companies and mass produce the product b/c they> > don't> > have to worry about the law suits etc. > > When you say if I grew a bunch of herbs out there> > that> > don't have a lot of side effects there you go>

> again...what proof? simple things such as licorice> > do> > have side effects. Loving nature (which I do) and> > the> > beauty in mother nature and planting does not have> > anything to do with it. In fact this is unfair b/c> > its> > not nature vs. chemicals. I find my own 'god' in> > science which is beautiful etc. and this is very> > personal...I love to garden I love nature and I> > consider since I am a person that my roots would> > establish that I am part of this. Not wanting to> > take> > herbs does not have anything to do with my love of> > nature. So this has nothing to do with anything. I> > am> > a liberal green party environmentalist so you are> > preaching to the choir about nature and this is> not> > the point. I just think we all get stuck in a> > paradigm> >

and we are just as bad as the other side. We only> > see> > our point of view which makes it impossible to> have> > a> > fair view of the other side. For example, if I do> > something bad do I reduce myself to that bad thing> > or> > a combination of everything? I don't think herbs> are> > all bad and I don't think science is all bad. I> know> > many people who work on drugs b/c they have had a> > family member die from the disorder and they want> to> > find a cure. That doesn't sound evil to me. > > > > --- Hunter wrote:> > > > > , I have said many times that herbs, and> all> > > other medicines should only be used with proper> > > supervision. So here we agree. Everything can be> > > deadly if abused or misused.> > > As for the FDA, I

don't think I need to start> > > listing the errors they have made, nor the> > medicines> > > they have recalled after declaring them safe.> They> > > rely on the information the drug companies give> > > them. > > > You end by saying that "Herbs can't back up> their> > > claims so the people are at risk." Hmmm True> > > enough I guess. But herbs are not patented, and> > are> > > widely available for anyone to grow for> > themselves. > > > An herb grown in CA will have different> properties> > > than the same species grown in Canada. The soil> is> > > different, the air and water. > > > If you did a study of all drugs, I bet you would> > > find there is a large number of drugs out there> > with> > > very few side effects, and that many of

them are> > > derived from plants, fungus, or some other> > naturally> > > occuring substance. Mother Nature/God/Evolution> > > provided us with natural remedies for most> natural> > > illnesses. Death's Head, a type of very toxic> > > mushroom, has a natural antidote. Milk Thistle.> > > Science causes us to disbelieve all that it can> > > not prove. I wonder if science can quantify the> > > effect of love on cooking, or teaching, or> === message truncated ===__________________________________________________

February 27, 2006

hahaha,, 74 emails,, we DO have talkers here, hehe,, I have read them all too,, Hunter <us2china2@...> wrote: I completely agree. Unfortuately, I read the posts as they come in, so I've sent some more today, before realizing this was hurting someone's feelings. I'm sorry I posted before reading all 74 emails today. 74 is a little out of hand for me, since I have to look up most English words in the dictionary. Peace Dylan! Peace and love everyone! GONGXI GONGXI GONGXI ! Happy tears I don't mind so much. XOXO P.S. gongxi = congratulationsJackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote: I agree with you regarding the FDA etc,, but maybe we better let this go for now,, things are getting dylan upset and that is not good for anyone,, Lets just agree to disagree,, ok? hugs hon meHunter <us2china2@...> wrote: Dylan... it seems I made the same mistake once before, probably because you using what looks like Rath's email address. I'm sorry to have forgotten. I forget lots of things. Herbs are not drugs that are produced in controlled settings like a lab. It would be impossible to quantify the amount of the active ingredient in a given portion of most any herb, because they can be grown in different places and circumstances. The big drug companies don't pay for FDA approval

because they want to be sure their drugs are safe. They pay because they have to! The FDA does not require the same of suppliments it considers safe, which is what the FDA considers most herbs to be. The acronym FDA stands for Food and Drug Administration. Foods do not require the same warning lables as drugs. But they do test foods for public safety, and they have given thier ok to every suppliment and herb sold in America. Naturapaths are making a comeback in America. If you talk to one or read about the history of this field of medicine, you will probably find out how the AMA brought about the near extinction of alternative medicine in America. We can have peace. But while I have tried to post reason, you have called my "word" questionable, and accused me of fabrication and twisting your words. That's not nice! I only countered your claims with logic, not

slander. I questioned the study mentioned in the original post, and agreed that the findings were inconclusive. I showed why I felt the study was flawed. Nowhere did I make remark to your character. Goodday. Eat herbs, sleep well, be real! Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: Not coerced just not paying to have their medicineproved that it worked. Anyways- we know how we feeland I want you to have good health and others. Wecould go on and on and on so I want to thank you forengaging and I may seem like I come across a certainway but that is where we become lost in translationb/c of the language of email....so thank you for yourtime and I am appreciative of your thoughts and ofyour knowledge and I think this could go on but Iwould

rather hug and say it's nice to have a debatewith an equal hepper who is searching like me foranswers and good health for others. Take care- and Iam a girl named Dylan :-)--- Hunter wrote:> You are trying to tell me that the producers of> herbs in America bought, or somehow coerced the FDA> into looking the other way?> G'night .> > Rath wrote:> Not really b/c who draws the line of> natural?> and there are studies on milk and we even know it's> b/c of ecoli in the large intestine which breaks> lactose sugars down for you if you cannot break it> down with an enzyme in the duodenum. The fact is> there> aren't warnings for herbs in our country and this is> what is real. No studies or no warnings. fact. the> FDA> does think they are dangerous but the herb producers> want them out

of the story. so they are out of the> story. this is a fact. people get offended if people> say they are dangerous b/c they say we are out to> sabotage what is good and natural. but if western> drugs are bad for us it's not wrong to explain this> to> people (with scientific studies mind you) if they> kill> people many (not all not wanting that debate) they> are> taken off the shelf unlike the herbs. fact.> > --- Hunter wrote:> > > I'm just going to copy and paste this, 'cause I've> > said it too many times before. ", I have said> > many times that herbs, and all other medicines> > should only be used with proper supervision." By> > your reasoning every box of salt should have a> > warning label that eating too much can be harmful,> > or every box of baking soda have a warning not to> > eat this and drink

vinegar. Pencils and pens can> be> > deadly. Should we have government agencies> spending> > tax dollars to protect us? If herbs and dietary> > supplements are dangerous, why doesn't the FDA> think> > so? The same reason they don't think vinegar is> > dangerous. Milk is dangerous if you are allergic. > > The same with eggs, wheat, and.... oh forget it!> > You can construe that cocaine is natural, or even> > LSD, since it naturally occures in the brain. But> I> > think you and everyone else here knows neither> > cocaine nor LSD is natural as I use the word.> > > > Rath wrote:> > That's great what you have to say but I didn't say> > misused or abused. Some people simply use them as> > the> > bottle says and this is enough to be considered> > misuse> > b/c there is not

indication that there are deadly> > side> > effects when combined with other herbs or> medicines.> > In a great world many people would do there> research> > but this is a product being sold on the market> that> > has beautiful packaging so you grab that option> over> > another. Science is a way of verifying information> > and> > everything you say is your word. I have seen> claims> > that things work but these are mostly on sites> that> > are trying to sell their products. Just because> > things> > are 'natural' doesn't mean that they are safe for> > our> > bodies. Poisonous berries are natural, cocaine is> > natural, lava is natural. I am not disputing the> use> > but it is unfair to say that science isn't for our> > benefit. If my father is diagnosed with cancer

I> > would> > rather use something that has scientifically> proven> > to> > work rather than some claims of herbs here or> there.> > Even deadly western medicine has worked on a few> > people but that isn't enough to verify that it> > should> > be used. But you could argue what is natural b/c> > everything on this earth is natural. every> chemical> > compound that is combined with science is natural.> > Changing elements and rearranging the chemistry is> > still natural. I am only saying this not for you> who> > is already convinced but for the other silent> > members> > who should have each side of the story so they can> > think both sides through and make a choice that is> > good for them (whether this be herbs or western> > medicine). Well to respond to another one of

your> > statements about you don't need to list the> mistakes> > that they have made- I am not on the side of the> > govt.> > etc. but the same could be said about the mistakes> > that herb producers have made. It's not all a> bunch> > of> > beautiful people growing beautiful things, many> > million dollar corporations have taken over the> > companies and mass produce the product b/c they> > don't> > have to worry about the law suits etc. > > When you say if I grew a bunch of herbs out there> > that> > don't have a lot of side effects there you go> > again...what proof? simple things such as licorice> > do> > have side effects. Loving nature (which I do) and> > the> > beauty in mother nature and planting does not have> > anything to do with it. In fact this is unfair

b/c> > its> > not nature vs. chemicals. I find my own 'god' in> > science which is beautiful etc. and this is very> > personal...I love to garden I love nature and I> > consider since I am a person that my roots would> > establish that I am part of this. Not wanting to> > take> > herbs does not have anything to do with my love of> > nature. So this has nothing to do with anything. I> > am> > a liberal green party environmentalist so you are> > preaching to the choir about nature and this is> not> > the point. I just think we all get stuck in a> > paradigm> > and we are just as bad as the other side. We only> > see> > our point of view which makes it impossible to> have> > a> > fair view of the other side. For example, if I do> > something bad do I reduce myself to that bad

thing> > or> > a combination of everything? I don't think herbs> are> > all bad and I don't think science is all bad. I> know> > many people who work on drugs b/c they have had a> > family member die from the disorder and they want> to> > find a cure. That doesn't sound evil to me. > > > > --- Hunter wrote:> > > > > , I have said many times that herbs, and> all> > > other medicines should only be used with proper> > > supervision. So here we agree. Everything can be> > > deadly if abused or misused.> > > As for the FDA, I don't think I need to start> > > listing the errors they have made, nor the> > medicines> > > they have recalled after declaring them safe.> They> > > rely on the information the drug companies give> > >

them. > > > You end by saying that "Herbs can't back up> their> > > claims so the people are at risk." Hmmm True> > > enough I guess. But herbs are not patented, and> > are> > > widely available for anyone to grow for> > themselves. > > > An herb grown in CA will have different> properties> > > than the same species grown in Canada. The soil> is> > > different, the air and water. > > > If you did a study of all drugs, I bet you would> > > find there is a large number of drugs out there> > with> > > very few side effects, and that many of them are> > > derived from plants, fungus, or some other> > naturally> > > occuring substance. Mother Nature/God/Evolution> > > provided us with natural remedies for most> natural> > > illnesses. Death's

Head, a type of very toxic> > > mushroom, has a natural antidote. Milk Thistle.> > > Science causes us to disbelieve all that it can> > > not prove. I wonder if science can quantify the> > > effect of love on cooking, or teaching, or> === message truncated ===__________________________________________________

February 27, 2006

You are welcome! As you say, "Ohio gozamias", I believe that Taiko drumming must be a Japanese tradition. The words you wrote look like they would be pronounces like a Japanese greeting that I learned many years ago. I just saw a special on some form of Japanese drumming. Seems the drummers are in a kind of trance and put all of their emotion and being into the drumming. Very physical and spiritual. Is this what you are doing? How do you count to ten? This will tell me for certain. Chinese 1-10 is: Yi, (pronounced like "ee") Er, ( like are ) San, Si, ( like the "si" in sir ) Wu, ( woo ) Liu, ( Leo ) Qi, ( Chee ) Ba, Jiu, ( kinda like Joe, but more like Gee+Oh ) and Shi ( like shir ) This does not include the intonation for any of these words, which gets very complicated. My dad taught me to count to ten in what he told me was Japanese, but he learned it in the Korea

War, so I'm not sure its not Korean. Jackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote: Thanks for teaching us some chinese,, Did I tell you chris that I am learning Taiko drumming? It started in China as a way for one community to correspond with another one,,, I have learned how to count to 10 as we do when we practice our exercises,, and we always bow into the drumming circle with Ohio gozamias,,, heheh Hunter <us2china2@...> wrote: I completely agree. Unfortuately, I read the posts as they come in, so I've sent some more today, before realizing this was hurting someone's feelings. I'm sorry I posted

before reading all 74 emails today. 74 is a little out of hand for me, since I have to look up most English words in the dictionary. Peace Dylan! Peace and love everyone! GONGXI GONGXI GONGXI ! Happy tears I don't mind so much. XOXO P.S. gongxi = congratulationsJackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote: I agree with you regarding the FDA etc,, but maybe we better let this go for now,, things are getting dylan upset and that is not good for anyone,, Lets just agree to disagree,, ok? hugs hon meHunter <us2china2@...> wrote: Dylan... it seems I made the same mistake once before, probably because you using what looks like Rath's email address. I'm sorry to have forgotten. I forget lots of things. Herbs are not drugs that are produced in controlled settings like a lab. It would be impossible to quantify the amount of the active ingredient in a given portion of most any herb, because they can be grown in different places and circumstances. The big drug companies don't pay for FDA approval because they want to be sure their drugs are safe. They pay because they have to! The FDA does not require the same of suppliments it considers safe, which is what the FDA considers most herbs to be. The acronym FDA stands for Food and Drug Administration. Foods do not require the same warning lables as drugs. But they do test foods for public safety, and they have given thier ok to every suppliment and herb sold in

America. Naturapaths are making a comeback in America. If you talk to one or read about the history of this field of medicine, you will probably find out how the AMA brought about the near extinction of alternative medicine in America. We can have peace. But while I have tried to post reason, you have called my "word" questionable, and accused me of fabrication and twisting your words. That's not nice! I only countered your claims with logic, not slander. I questioned the study mentioned in the original post, and agreed that the findings were inconclusive. I showed why I felt the study was flawed. Nowhere did I make remark to your character. Goodday. Eat herbs, sleep well, be real! Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: Not coerced just not paying to have their medicineproved that it worked. Anyways- we know how we feeland I want you to have good health and others. Wecould go on and on and on so I want to thank you forengaging and I may seem like I come across a certainway but that is where we become lost in translationb/c of the language of email....so thank you for yourtime and I am appreciative of your thoughts and ofyour knowledge and I think this could go on but Iwould rather hug and say it's nice to have a debatewith an equal hepper who is searching like me foranswers and good health for others. Take care- and Iam a girl named Dylan :-)--- Hunter wrote:> You are trying to tell me that the producers of> herbs in America bought, or somehow coerced the FDA> into looking the other way?> G'night .> > Rath wrote:> Not

really b/c who draws the line of> natural?> and there are studies on milk and we even know it's> b/c of ecoli in the large intestine which breaks> lactose sugars down for you if you cannot break it> down with an enzyme in the duodenum. The fact is> there> aren't warnings for herbs in our country and this is> what is real. No studies or no warnings. fact. the> FDA> does think they are dangerous but the herb producers> want them out of the story. so they are out of the> story. this is a fact. people get offended if people> say they are dangerous b/c they say we are out to> sabotage what is good and natural. but if western> drugs are bad for us it's not wrong to explain this> to> people (with scientific studies mind you) if they> kill> people many (not all not wanting that debate) they> are> taken off the shelf unlike the herbs.

fact.> > --- Hunter wrote:> > > I'm just going to copy and paste this, 'cause I've> > said it too many times before. ", I have said> > many times that herbs, and all other medicines> > should only be used with proper supervision." By> > your reasoning every box of salt should have a> > warning label that eating too much can be harmful,> > or every box of baking soda have a warning not to> > eat this and drink vinegar. Pencils and pens can> be> > deadly. Should we have government agencies> spending> > tax dollars to protect us? If herbs and dietary> > supplements are dangerous, why doesn't the FDA> think> > so? The same reason they don't think vinegar is> > dangerous. Milk is dangerous if you are allergic. > > The same with eggs, wheat, and.... oh forget it!> > You can construe that

cocaine is natural, or even> > LSD, since it naturally occures in the brain. But> I> > think you and everyone else here knows neither> > cocaine nor LSD is natural as I use the word.> > > > Rath wrote:> > That's great what you have to say but I didn't say> > misused or abused. Some people simply use them as> > the> > bottle says and this is enough to be considered> > misuse> > b/c there is not indication that there are deadly> > side> > effects when combined with other herbs or> medicines.> > In a great world many people would do there> research> > but this is a product being sold on the market> that> > has beautiful packaging so you grab that option> over> > another. Science is a way of verifying information> > and> > everything you say is your word. I

have seen> claims> > that things work but these are mostly on sites> that> > are trying to sell their products. Just because> > things> > are 'natural' doesn't mean that they are safe for> > our> > bodies. Poisonous berries are natural, cocaine is> > natural, lava is natural. I am not disputing the> use> > but it is unfair to say that science isn't for our> > benefit. If my father is diagnosed with cancer I> > would> > rather use something that has scientifically> proven> > to> > work rather than some claims of herbs here or> there.> > Even deadly western medicine has worked on a few> > people but that isn't enough to verify that it> > should> > be used. But you could argue what is natural b/c> > everything on this earth is natural. every> chemical> >

compound that is combined with science is natural.> > Changing elements and rearranging the chemistry is> > still natural. I am only saying this not for you> who> > is already convinced but for the other silent> > members> > who should have each side of the story so they can> > think both sides through and make a choice that is> > good for them (whether this be herbs or western> > medicine). Well to respond to another one of your> > statements about you don't need to list the> mistakes> > that they have made- I am not on the side of the> > govt.> > etc. but the same could be said about the mistakes> > that herb producers have made. It's not all a> bunch> > of> > beautiful people growing beautiful things, many> > million dollar corporations have taken over the> > companies and mass produce the

product b/c they> > don't> > have to worry about the law suits etc. > > When you say if I grew a bunch of herbs out there> > that> > don't have a lot of side effects there you go> > again...what proof? simple things such as licorice> > do> > have side effects. Loving nature (which I do) and> > the> > beauty in mother nature and planting does not have> > anything to do with it. In fact this is unfair b/c> > its> > not nature vs. chemicals. I find my own 'god' in> > science which is beautiful etc. and this is very> > personal...I love to garden I love nature and I> > consider since I am a person that my roots would> > establish that I am part of this. Not wanting to> > take> > herbs does not have anything to do with my love of> > nature. So this has nothing to do with anything. I>

> am> > a liberal green party environmentalist so you are> > preaching to the choir about nature and this is> not> > the point. I just think we all get stuck in a> > paradigm> > and we are just as bad as the other side. We only> > see> > our point of view which makes it impossible to> have> > a> > fair view of the other side. For example, if I do> > something bad do I reduce myself to that bad thing> > or> > a combination of everything? I don't think herbs> are> > all bad and I don't think science is all bad. I> know> > many people who work on drugs b/c they have had a> > family member die from the disorder and they want> to> > find a cure. That doesn't sound evil to me. > > > > --- Hunter wrote:> > > > > , I have said many times that

herbs, and> all> > > other medicines should only be used with proper> > > supervision. So here we agree. Everything can be> > > deadly if abused or misused.> > > As for the FDA, I don't think I need to start> > > listing the errors they have made, nor the> > medicines> > > they have recalled after declaring them safe.> They> > > rely on the information the drug companies give> > > them. > > > You end by saying that "Herbs can't back up> their> > > claims so the people are at risk." Hmmm True> > > enough I guess. But herbs are not patented, and> > are> > > widely available for anyone to grow for> > themselves. > > > An herb grown in CA will have different> properties> > > than the same species grown in Canada. The soil> is> > >

different, the air and water. > > > If you did a study of all drugs, I bet you would> > > find there is a large number of drugs out there> > with> > > very few side effects, and that many of them are> > > derived from plants, fungus, or some other> > naturally> > > occuring substance. Mother Nature/God/Evolution> > > provided us with natural remedies for most> natural> > > illnesses. Death's Head, a type of very toxic> > > mushroom, has a natural antidote. Milk Thistle.> > > Science causes us to disbelieve all that it can> > > not prove. I wonder if science can quantify the> > > effect of love on cooking, or teaching, or> === message truncated ===__________________________________________________

February 27, 2006

yes Taiko is now a Japanese thing but was "originally" done in china,, as communication between villages,, its an amazing thing,, I have a hard time describing it or how it "feels" but I DO know it feels wonderful and is a good source of exercise,, lol,, No, the drummers are not in a trance,, well as far as I know,, but Im a beginner in this ,, I started months ago but found that I just did not have the stamina to be able to do it with all the energies and emotions needed in caring for my parents and with being so disabled from hep tx.. but I AM going to get back to it.. My doc has changed my morphine doses and it has made things soooo much better and my energy is better since I am not fighting such severe body pain.. so Ill get back soon,, Im hoping for this week in fact... Ill be back soon, hugs jaxHunter <us2china2@...> wrote: You are welcome! As you say, "Ohio gozamias", I believe that Taiko drumming must be a Japanese tradition. The words you wrote look like they would be pronounces like a Japanese greeting that I learned many years ago. I just saw a special on some form of Japanese drumming. Seems the drummers are in a kind of trance and put all of their emotion and being into the drumming. Very physical and spiritual. Is this what you are doing? How do you count to ten? This will tell me for certain. Chinese 1-10 is: Yi, (pronounced like "ee") Er, ( like are ) San, Si, ( like the "si" in sir ) Wu, ( woo ) Liu, ( Leo ) Qi, ( Chee ) Ba, Jiu, ( kinda like Joe, but more like Gee+Oh ) and Shi ( like shir ) This does not include the intonation for any of these words, which gets very complicated. My dad taught me to

count to ten in what he told me was Japanese, but he learned it in the Korea War, so I'm not sure its not Korean. Jackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote: Thanks for teaching us some chinese,, Did I tell you chris that I am learning Taiko drumming? It started in China as a way for one community to correspond with another one,,, I have learned how to count to 10 as we do when we practice our exercises,, and we always bow into the drumming circle with Ohio gozamias,,, heheh Hunter <us2china2@...> wrote: I completely agree. Unfortuately, I read the posts as they come in, so I've sent some more today,

before realizing this was hurting someone's feelings. I'm sorry I posted before reading all 74 emails today. 74 is a little out of hand for me, since I have to look up most English words in the dictionary. Peace Dylan! Peace and love everyone! GONGXI GONGXI GONGXI ! Happy tears I don't mind so much. XOXO P.S. gongxi = congratulationsJackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote: I agree with you regarding the FDA etc,, but maybe we better let this go for now,, things are getting dylan upset and that is not good for anyone,, Lets just agree to disagree,, ok? hugs hon meHunter <us2china2@...> wrote: Dylan... it seems I made the same mistake once before, probably because you using what looks like Rath's email address. I'm sorry to have forgotten. I forget lots of things. Herbs are not drugs that are produced in controlled settings like a lab. It would be impossible to quantify the amount of the active ingredient in a given portion of most any herb, because they can be grown in different places and circumstances. The big drug companies don't pay for FDA approval because they want to be sure their drugs are safe. They pay because they have to! The FDA does not require the same of suppliments it considers safe, which is what the FDA considers most herbs to be. The acronym FDA stands for Food and Drug Administration. Foods do not require the same warning lables as drugs. But they do test foods for public

safety, and they have given thier ok to every suppliment and herb sold in America. Naturapaths are making a comeback in America. If you talk to one or read about the history of this field of medicine, you will probably find out how the AMA brought about the near extinction of alternative medicine in America. We can have peace. But while I have tried to post reason, you have called my "word" questionable, and accused me of fabrication and twisting your words. That's not nice! I only countered your claims with logic, not slander. I questioned the study mentioned in the original post, and agreed that the findings were inconclusive. I showed why I felt the study was flawed. Nowhere did I make remark to your character. Goodday. Eat herbs, sleep well, be real! Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: Not coerced just not paying to have their medicineproved that it worked. Anyways- we know how we feeland I want you to have good health and others. Wecould go on and on and on so I want to thank you forengaging and I may seem like I come across a certainway but that is where we become lost in translationb/c of the language of email....so thank you for yourtime and I am appreciative of your thoughts and ofyour knowledge and I think this could go on but Iwould rather hug and say it's nice to have a debatewith an equal hepper who is searching like me foranswers and good health for others. Take care- and Iam a girl named Dylan :-)--- Hunter wrote:> You are trying to tell me that the producers of> herbs in America bought, or somehow coerced the FDA> into looking the other way?> G'night

.> > Rath wrote:> Not really b/c who draws the line of> natural?> and there are studies on milk and we even know it's> b/c of ecoli in the large intestine which breaks> lactose sugars down for you if you cannot break it> down with an enzyme in the duodenum. The fact is> there> aren't warnings for herbs in our country and this is> what is real. No studies or no warnings. fact. the> FDA> does think they are dangerous but the herb producers> want them out of the story. so they are out of the> story. this is a fact. people get offended if people> say they are dangerous b/c they say we are out to> sabotage what is good and natural. but if western> drugs are bad for us it's not wrong to explain this> to> people (with scientific studies mind you) if they> kill> people many (not all not wanting that

debate) they> are> taken off the shelf unlike the herbs. fact.> > --- Hunter wrote:> > > I'm just going to copy and paste this, 'cause I've> > said it too many times before. ", I have said> > many times that herbs, and all other medicines> > should only be used with proper supervision." By> > your reasoning every box of salt should have a> > warning label that eating too much can be harmful,> > or every box of baking soda have a warning not to> > eat this and drink vinegar. Pencils and pens can> be> > deadly. Should we have government agencies> spending> > tax dollars to protect us? If herbs and dietary> > supplements are dangerous, why doesn't the FDA> think> > so? The same reason they don't think vinegar is> > dangerous. Milk is dangerous if you are allergic. > > The same with

eggs, wheat, and.... oh forget it!> > You can construe that cocaine is natural, or even> > LSD, since it naturally occures in the brain. But> I> > think you and everyone else here knows neither> > cocaine nor LSD is natural as I use the word.> > > > Rath wrote:> > That's great what you have to say but I didn't say> > misused or abused. Some people simply use them as> > the> > bottle says and this is enough to be considered> > misuse> > b/c there is not indication that there are deadly> > side> > effects when combined with other herbs or> medicines.> > In a great world many people would do there> research> > but this is a product being sold on the market> that> > has beautiful packaging so you grab that option> over> > another. Science is a way of verifying

information> > and> > everything you say is your word. I have seen> claims> > that things work but these are mostly on sites> that> > are trying to sell their products. Just because> > things> > are 'natural' doesn't mean that they are safe for> > our> > bodies. Poisonous berries are natural, cocaine is> > natural, lava is natural. I am not disputing the> use> > but it is unfair to say that science isn't for our> > benefit. If my father is diagnosed with cancer I> > would> > rather use something that has scientifically> proven> > to> > work rather than some claims of herbs here or> there.> > Even deadly western medicine has worked on a few> > people but that isn't enough to verify that it> > should> > be used. But you could argue what is natural b/c> >

everything on this earth is natural. every> chemical> > compound that is combined with science is natural.> > Changing elements and rearranging the chemistry is> > still natural. I am only saying this not for you> who> > is already convinced but for the other silent> > members> > who should have each side of the story so they can> > think both sides through and make a choice that is> > good for them (whether this be herbs or western> > medicine). Well to respond to another one of your> > statements about you don't need to list the> mistakes> > that they have made- I am not on the side of the> > govt.> > etc. but the same could be said about the mistakes> > that herb producers have made. It's not all a> bunch> > of> > beautiful people growing beautiful things, many> > million dollar

corporations have taken over the> > companies and mass produce the product b/c they> > don't> > have to worry about the law suits etc. > > When you say if I grew a bunch of herbs out there> > that> > don't have a lot of side effects there you go> > again...what proof? simple things such as licorice> > do> > have side effects. Loving nature (which I do) and> > the> > beauty in mother nature and planting does not have> > anything to do with it. In fact this is unfair b/c> > its> > not nature vs. chemicals. I find my own 'god' in> > science which is beautiful etc. and this is very> > personal...I love to garden I love nature and I> > consider since I am a person that my roots would> > establish that I am part of this. Not wanting to> > take> > herbs does not have anything to do with my

love of> > nature. So this has nothing to do with anything. I> > am> > a liberal green party environmentalist so you are> > preaching to the choir about nature and this is> not> > the point. I just think we all get stuck in a> > paradigm> > and we are just as bad as the other side. We only> > see> > our point of view which makes it impossible to> have> > a> > fair view of the other side. For example, if I do> > something bad do I reduce myself to that bad thing> > or> > a combination of everything? I don't think herbs> are> > all bad and I don't think science is all bad. I> know> > many people who work on drugs b/c they have had a> > family member die from the disorder and they want> to> > find a cure. That doesn't sound evil to me. > > > > --- Chris

Hunter wrote:> > > > > , I have said many times that herbs, and> all> > > other medicines should only be used with proper> > > supervision. So here we agree. Everything can be> > > deadly if abused or misused.> > > As for the FDA, I don't think I need to start> > > listing the errors they have made, nor the> > medicines> > > they have recalled after declaring them safe.> They> > > rely on the information the drug companies give> > > them. > > > You end by saying that "Herbs can't back up> their> > > claims so the people are at risk." Hmmm True> > > enough I guess. But herbs are not patented, and> > are> > > widely available for anyone to grow for> > themselves. > > > An herb grown in CA will have different> properties> >

> than the same species grown in Canada. The soil> is> > > different, the air and water. > > > If you did a study of all drugs, I bet you would> > > find there is a large number of drugs out there> > with> > > very few side effects, and that many of them are> > > derived from plants, fungus, or some other> > naturally> > > occuring substance. Mother Nature/God/Evolution> > > provided us with natural remedies for most> natural> > > illnesses. Death's Head, a type of very toxic> > > mushroom, has a natural antidote. Milk Thistle.> > > Science causes us to disbelieve all that it can> > > not prove. I wonder if science can quantify the> > > effect of love on cooking, or teaching, or> === message truncated ===__________________________________________________Do You

?Tired of spam? has the best spam protection around http://mail. It's a pleasure having you join in our conversations. We hope you have found the support you need with us. If you are using email for your posts, for easy access to our group, just click the link-- Hepatitis C/Happy Posting

February 27, 2006

EEE GADS! You are having to take morphine? Daily??? I'm so sorry! I can't imagine. When I had gall stones I wanted to die. They gave me morphine for the pain. But I can't imagine trying ot function on that stuff. Hey Jackie, can you get any extra? <wink><wink> Love, ChrisJackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote: yes Taiko is now a Japanese thing but was "originally" done in china,, as communication between villages,, its an amazing thing,, I have a hard time describing it or how it "feels" but I DO know it feels wonderful and is a good source of exercise,, lol,, No, the drummers are not in a trance,, well as far as I know,, but Im a beginner in this ,, I started months ago but found that I just did not have the

stamina to be able to do it with all the energies and emotions needed in caring for my parents and with being so disabled from hep tx.. but I AM going to get back to it.. My doc has changed my morphine doses and it has made things soooo much better and my energy is better since I am not fighting such severe body pain.. so Ill get back soon,, Im hoping for this week in fact... Ill be back soon, hugs jaxHunter <us2china2@...> wrote: You are welcome! As you say, "Ohio gozamias", I believe that Taiko drumming must be a Japanese tradition. The words you wrote look like they would be pronounces like a Japanese greeting that I learned many years ago. I just saw a special on some form of Japanese drumming. Seems the drummers are in a kind of

trance and put all of their emotion and being into the drumming. Very physical and spiritual. Is this what you are doing? How do you count to ten? This will tell me for certain. Chinese 1-10 is: Yi, (pronounced like "ee") Er, ( like are ) San, Si, ( like the "si" in sir ) Wu, ( woo ) Liu, ( Leo ) Qi, ( Chee ) Ba, Jiu, ( kinda like Joe, but more like Gee+Oh ) and Shi ( like shir ) This does not include the intonation for any of these words, which gets very complicated. My dad taught me to count to ten in what he told me was Japanese, but he learned it in the Korea War, so I'm not sure its not Korean. Jackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote: Thanks for teaching us some chinese,, Did I tell you chris that I am learning Taiko drumming?

It started in China as a way for one community to correspond with another one,,, I have learned how to count to 10 as we do when we practice our exercises,, and we always bow into the drumming circle with Ohio gozamias,,, heheh Hunter <us2china2@...> wrote: I completely agree. Unfortuately, I read the posts as they come in, so I've sent some more today, before realizing this was hurting someone's feelings. I'm sorry I posted before reading all 74 emails today. 74 is a little out of hand for me, since I have to look up most English words in the dictionary. Peace Dylan! Peace and love everyone! GONGXI GONGXI GONGXI ! Happy tears I don't mind so much. XOXO P.S. gongxi

= congratulationsJackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote: I agree with you regarding the FDA etc,, but maybe we better let this go for now,, things are getting dylan upset and that is not good for anyone,, Lets just agree to disagree,, ok? hugs hon meHunter <us2china2@...> wrote: Dylan... it seems I made the same mistake once before, probably because you using what looks like Rath's email address. I'm sorry to have forgotten. I forget lots of things. Herbs are not drugs that are produced in controlled settings like a lab. It would be impossible to quantify the amount of the active ingredient

in a given portion of most any herb, because they can be grown in different places and circumstances. The big drug companies don't pay for FDA approval because they want to be sure their drugs are safe. They pay because they have to! The FDA does not require the same of suppliments it considers safe, which is what the FDA considers most herbs to be. The acronym FDA stands for Food and Drug Administration. Foods do not require the same warning lables as drugs. But they do test foods for public safety, and they have given thier ok to every suppliment and herb sold in America. Naturapaths are making a comeback in America. If you talk to one or read about the history of this field of medicine, you will probably find out how the AMA brought about the near extinction of alternative medicine in America. We can have peace. But while I have tried to post reason, you have called my "word"

questionable, and accused me of fabrication and twisting your words. That's not nice! I only countered your claims with logic, not slander. I questioned the study mentioned in the original post, and agreed that the findings were inconclusive. I showed why I felt the study was flawed. Nowhere did I make remark to your character. Goodday. Eat herbs, sleep well, be real! Rath <kdrath@...> wrote: Not coerced just not paying to have their medicineproved that it worked. Anyways- we know how we feeland I want you to have good health and others. Wecould go on and on and on so I want to thank you forengaging and I may seem like I come across a certainway but that is where we become lost in translationb/c of the language of

email....so thank you for yourtime and I am appreciative of your thoughts and ofyour knowledge and I think this could go on but Iwould rather hug and say it's nice to have a debatewith an equal hepper who is searching like me foranswers and good health for others. Take care- and Iam a girl named Dylan :-)--- Hunter wrote:> You are trying to tell me that the producers of> herbs in America bought, or somehow coerced the FDA> into looking the other way?> G'night .> > Rath wrote:> Not really b/c who draws the line of> natural?> and there are studies on milk and we even know it's> b/c of ecoli in the large intestine which breaks> lactose sugars down for you if you cannot break it> down with an enzyme in the duodenum. The fact is> there> aren't warnings for herbs in our country and this

is> what is real. No studies or no warnings. fact. the> FDA> does think they are dangerous but the herb producers> want them out of the story. so they are out of the> story. this is a fact. people get offended if people> say they are dangerous b/c they say we are out to> sabotage what is good and natural. but if western> drugs are bad for us it's not wrong to explain this> to> people (with scientific studies mind you) if they> kill> people many (not all not wanting that debate) they> are> taken off the shelf unlike the herbs. fact.> > --- Hunter wrote:> > > I'm just going to copy and paste this, 'cause I've> > said it too many times before. ", I have said> > many times that herbs, and all other medicines> > should only be used with proper supervision." By> > your reasoning every box of salt should have

a> > warning label that eating too much can be harmful,> > or every box of baking soda have a warning not to> > eat this and drink vinegar. Pencils and pens can> be> > deadly. Should we have government agencies> spending> > tax dollars to protect us? If herbs and dietary> > supplements are dangerous, why doesn't the FDA> think> > so? The same reason they don't think vinegar is> > dangerous. Milk is dangerous if you are allergic. > > The same with eggs, wheat, and.... oh forget it!> > You can construe that cocaine is natural, or even> > LSD, since it naturally occures in the brain. But> I> > think you and everyone else here knows neither> > cocaine nor LSD is natural as I use the word.> > > > Rath wrote:> > That's great what you have to say but I didn't say> > misused or abused. Some

people simply use them as> > the> > bottle says and this is enough to be considered> > misuse> > b/c there is not indication that there are deadly> > side> > effects when combined with other herbs or> medicines.> > In a great world many people would do there> research> > but this is a product being sold on the market> that> > has beautiful packaging so you grab that option> over> > another. Science is a way of verifying information> > and> > everything you say is your word. I have seen> claims> > that things work but these are mostly on sites> that> > are trying to sell their products. Just because> > things> > are 'natural' doesn't mean that they are safe for> > our> > bodies. Poisonous berries are natural, cocaine is> > natural, lava is natural. I am

not disputing the> use> > but it is unfair to say that science isn't for our> > benefit. If my father is diagnosed with cancer I> > would> > rather use something that has scientifically> proven> > to> > work rather than some claims of herbs here or> there.> > Even deadly western medicine has worked on a few> > people but that isn't enough to verify that it> > should> > be used. But you could argue what is natural b/c> > everything on this earth is natural. every> chemical> > compound that is combined with science is natural.> > Changing elements and rearranging the chemistry is> > still natural. I am only saying this not for you> who> > is already convinced but for the other silent> > members> > who should have each side of the story so they can> > think both sides

through and make a choice that is> > good for them (whether this be herbs or western> > medicine). Well to respond to another one of your> > statements about you don't need to list the> mistakes> > that they have made- I am not on the side of the> > govt.> > etc. but the same could be said about the mistakes> > that herb producers have made. It's not all a> bunch> > of> > beautiful people growing beautiful things, many> > million dollar corporations have taken over the> > companies and mass produce the product b/c they> > don't> > have to worry about the law suits etc. > > When you say if I grew a bunch of herbs out there> > that> > don't have a lot of side effects there you go> > again...what proof? simple things such as licorice> > do> > have side effects. Loving nature (which I

do) and> > the> > beauty in mother nature and planting does not have> > anything to do with it. In fact this is unfair b/c> > its> > not nature vs. chemicals. I find my own 'god' in> > science which is beautiful etc. and this is very> > personal...I love to garden I love nature and I> > consider since I am a person that my roots would> > establish that I am part of this. Not wanting to> > take> > herbs does not have anything to do with my love of> > nature. So this has nothing to do with anything. I> > am> > a liberal green party environmentalist so you are> > preaching to the choir about nature and this is> not> > the point. I just think we all get stuck in a> > paradigm> > and we are just as bad as the other side. We only> > see> > our point of view which makes it impossible

to> have> > a> > fair view of the other side. For example, if I do> > something bad do I reduce myself to that bad thing> > or> > a combination of everything? I don't think herbs> are> > all bad and I don't think science is all bad. I> know> > many people who work on drugs b/c they have had a> > family member die from the disorder and they want> to> > find a cure. That doesn't sound evil to me. > > > > --- Hunter wrote:> > > > > , I have said many times that herbs, and> all> > > other medicines should only be used with proper> > > supervision. So here we agree. Everything can be> > > deadly if abused or misused.> > > As for the FDA, I don't think I need to start> > > listing the errors they have made, nor the> > medicines>

> > they have recalled after declaring them safe.> They> > > rely on the information the drug companies give> > > them. > > > You end by saying that "Herbs can't back up> their> > > claims so the people are at risk." Hmmm True> > > enough I guess. But herbs are not patented, and> > are> > > widely available for anyone to grow for> > themselves. > > > An herb grown in CA will have different> properties> > > than the same species grown in Canada. The soil> is> > > different, the air and water. > > > If you did a study of all drugs, I bet you would> > > find there is a large number of drugs out there> > with> > > very few side effects, and that many of them are> > > derived from plants, fungus, or some other> > naturally> > > occuring

substance. Mother Nature/God/Evolution> > > provided us with natural remedies for most> natural> > > illnesses. Death's Head, a type of very toxic> > > mushroom, has a natural antidote. Milk Thistle.> > > Science causes us to disbelieve all that it can> > > not prove. I wonder if science can quantify the> > > effect of love on cooking, or teaching, or> === message truncated ===__________________________________________________

February 27, 2006

hey chris, no ( wink wink) hahaha... well I get absolutely NO high from it, I just can function.. it gets my pain level down from a 9 or 10 of 10 down to maybe a 3 or 4 of 10.. doesnt get rid of it all together,, but makes it manigible... yes, I take it every 8 hours round the clock,, or I can't get out of bed,, it sucks but at least something works,, Hunter <us2china2@...> wrote: EEE GADS! You are having to take morphine? Daily??? I'm so sorry! I can't imagine. When I had gall stones I wanted to die. They gave me morphine for the pain. But I can't imagine trying ot function on that stuff. Hey Jackie, can you get any extra? <wink><wink> Love, ChrisJackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote: yes Taiko is now a Japanese thing but was "originally" done in china,, as communication between villages,, its an amazing thing,, I have a hard time describing it or how it "feels" but I DO know it feels wonderful and is a good source of exercise,, lol,, No, the drummers are not in a trance,, well as far as I know,, but Im a beginner in this ,, I started months ago but found that I just did not have the stamina to be able to do it with all the energies and emotions needed in caring for my parents and with being so disabled from hep tx.. but I AM going to get back to it.. My doc has changed my morphine doses and it has made things soooo much better and my energy is better since I am not fighting such severe body pain.. so Ill get back soon,, Im hoping for this week in fact... Ill be back soon, hugs jaxHunter <us2china2@...> wrote: You are welcome! As you say, "Ohio gozamias", I believe that Taiko drumming must be a Japanese tradition. The words you wrote look like they would be pronounces like a Japanese greeting that I learned many years ago. I just saw a special on some form of Japanese drumming. Seems the drummers are in a kind of trance and put all of their emotion and being into the drumming. Very physical and spiritual. Is this what you are doing? How do you count to ten? This will tell me for certain. Chinese 1-10 is: Yi, (pronounced like "ee") Er, ( like are ) San, Si, ( like the "si" in sir ) Wu, ( woo ) Liu, ( Leo ) Qi, ( Chee ) Ba, Jiu, ( kinda like Joe, but more like Gee+Oh ) and Shi ( like shir ) This

does not include the intonation for any of these words, which gets very complicated. My dad taught me to count to ten in what he told me was Japanese, but he learned it in the Korea War, so I'm not sure its not Korean. Jackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote: Thanks for teaching us some chinese,, Did I tell you chris that I am learning Taiko drumming? It started in China as a way for one community to correspond with another one,,, I have learned how to count to 10 as we do when we practice our exercises,, and we always bow into the drumming circle with Ohio gozamias,,, heheh Hunter <us2china2@...> wrote:

I completely agree. Unfortuately, I read the posts as they come in, so I've sent some more today, before realizing this was hurting someone's feelings. I'm sorry I posted before reading all 74 emails today. 74 is a little out of hand for me, since I have to look up most English words in the dictionary. Peace Dylan! Peace and love everyone! GONGXI GONGXI GONGXI ! Happy tears I don't mind so much. XOXO P.S. gongxi = congratulationsJackie on <redjaxjm@...> wrote: I agree with you regarding the FDA etc,, but maybe we better let this go for now,, things are getting dylan upset and that is not good for anyone,, Lets just agree to disagree,, ok? hugs hon

meHunter <us2china2@...> wrote: Dylan... it seems I made the same mistake once before, probably because you using what looks like Rath's email address. I'm sorry to have forgotten. I forget lots of things. Herbs are not drugs that are produced in controlled settings like a lab. It would be impossible to quantify the amount of the active ingredient in a given portion of most any herb, because they can be grown in different places and circumstances. The big drug companies don't pay for FDA approval because they want to be sure their drugs are safe. They pay because they have to! The FDA does not require the same of suppliments it considers safe, which is what the FDA considers most herbs to be. The acronym FDA stands for Food and Drug