RE: Squats with Vertical Shins?

[Guest guest]

I'm definitely no authority here but I think I'm a good student of

Westside so I can try to fill in until someone more reputable does. By

vertical, the sideview is implied. During box squats, a ridiculously

wide stance is encouraged so from the front, the shins are far from

vertical. In fact, while we're speaking of box squatting, off the box,

Louie says that you are supposed to bring your knees behind your heel. I

can't do this yet but I've seen Matt Dimel do it in their video. His

shins were actually past vertical.

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

Squats with Vertical Shins?

Alder wrote:

<Dr Siff - I am a long time powerlifter(traditional USPF style

training),

recently I have been trying to use some of the Westside methods. I

was

wondering if your comments about vertical alignment of the shins,

pertains to

box squats. All the Westside articles and videos seem to preach

vertical

alignment of the shins as paramount. Please give me your views on

this. Off

subject - I enjoy this forum and am anxiously awaiting info on the

next

Supertraining camp.>

*** One has to look a little more carefully into the definition of

what some

people call " vertical " . Science conventionally refers all positions

and

movements relative to three mutually perpendicular planes (and also

axes),

while anatomy also uses three basic planes of reference: frontal,

sagittal

and transverse. In other words, to be perfectly accurate, one has to

define

what is vertical with respect to all of these axes or planes. If we

do so,

then we will note that, unless one is standing perfectly upright with

heels

together, the shins are not vertical with respect to both the frontal

and

sagittal planes. Even then, the shins (tibiae?) are not necessarily

entirely

vertical in all people.

As soon as one shifts the knees forwards or opens the legs wider, the

shins

no longer remain vertical in both of these planes. So, I would be

most

interested to hear exactly what all of these authorities mean by

" vertical

shins " before we take this topic any further. I do not wish to

critique the

advice of someone whose definitions have not yet been clearly spelled

out.

Note that, in addition to these " mutually orthogonal " planes and axes,

science also defines torque or rotation with respect to these axes

(where

axes are located in the three planes), so that conventionally we

describe and

analyse position and motion in six dimensions, i.e., via the use of at

least

6 variables (3 linear and 3 rotational). When one squats, any rotation

of the

lower extremities ( " the legs " ) creates torque around some or all of

the

joints and bones involved, so, if one is to examine thoroughly the

action of

the lower extremities during a squat, one has to consider what happens

in all

dimensions. Incidentally, rotation coupled with flexion of a joint,

can

significantly increase the risks of injury to the joint, which is a

good

reason not to simultaneously tilt and rotate the knees inwards (at

least over

a large range) under heavy loading (or to trying resist a hard tackle

by

struggling to keep one's feet firmly planted on the turf).

Dr Mel C Siff

Denver, USA

Supertraining/

[Guest guest]

> Alder wrote:

>

> <Dr Siff - I am a long time powerlifter(traditional USPF style training),

> recently I have been trying to use some of the Westside methods. I was

> wondering if your comments about vertical alignment of the shins, pertains to

> box squats. All the Westside articles and videos seem to preach vertical

> alignment of the shins as paramount. Please give me your views on this. Off

> subject - I enjoy this forum and am anxiously awaiting info on the next

> Supertraining camp.>

, this basically comes from poor interpretation of research conducted on

the squat. The movement refers to forward movement of the knees during the

descent of the squat. Now, some research has indicated that movement beyond

11-degrees forward takes away from the mechanics/leverage of the lift. And

this is seen to mean that the shins need to remain vertical. Also coming

into the picture are some good squatters that have their shins straight up

and down while in the hole.

Based on this " data " some feel that " you must squat with the shins

vertical, " which is really nonsense if you look at how different most people

are built and if you consider that the research indicates that your knees

can move forward by up to 11-degrees. The box squat, however, is one of

those training tools that hasn't been examined by scientists in any detail

so exact info on that isn't available, suffice to say, you're still

squatting and the general rules from the squat would seem to apply.

--

Dan Wagman, Ph.D., C.S.C.S.

Publisher/Editor in Chief, PURE POWER

" When Training + Science = Peak Performance "

www.purepowermag.com

Body Intellect, Inc.

P.O. Box 77066

Colorado Springs, CO 80970-7066

P: 719.597.3525

F: 719.638.6107

[Guest guest]

After reading this thread for the past 11 or 12 arguments, I did a little

non-scientific research this weekend. I had a Hi 8 mm. video camera, plumb

bob and transit, three subjects with weights and squat rack. The three

subjects we me (50+), 5'-7 " X 250#'s - best squat 357.5 Kg; my wife (44),

5'-3 " X 130#'s - best squat 160 Kg; and my son (14), 5'-10 1/2 " X 150#'s -

best squat 102.5 kg.

I set the bar up in the rack and we did three different squats with light

and medium weight. During the squat, I set up the transit and Hi 8mm. video

camera in line with the end of the bar, and suspended the plum bob from the

end of the bar. I made an assumption that the most efficient squat was one

in which the bar traveled in a straight line and in a vertical path along a

plane perpendicular with the floor. I looked at the powerlifting squat,

wide and conventional stance, the high bar " Olympic " squat and the front

squat.

I found several interesting things.

1.) All three subjects " racked " the bar comfortably in a position directly

above the back 1/2 quadrant of the arch of the foot, in both the high bar OL

squat and the Lower bar PL Squat (wide and narrow stance) and surprisingly

in the front squat with a slight lean to the rear. The PL squat when racked

properly was carried considerably lower on the back which resulted in a

slight " lean " forward.

2.) All three subjects were then asked to squat the weight. Each lifter

experienced an out of balance sensation if the travel of the bar fell

outside of a path straight up and down from the original position of the

bar. With the bar carried higher in the OL squat, the knees were driven

slightly more forward than when the bar was carried lower in the PL squat.

The knees were driven considerably more " forward " in the front squat than in

the rear squat.

3.) As the bar was carried lower on the back in the PL squat, the work

seemed to be more on the hip flexors, glutes and lower back, in the OL squat

more in the quads, flexors and glutes; and the front squat, the quads and

knees. If the knees were purposely driven forward, (pushing the bar forward

of the path of the squat), more of the stress seemed to be placed on the

knees and curiously the lower back. In the OL squat, when the heels were

elevated and the knees driven forward, unless a strict upright upper body

position was maintained, stress was placed upon the knees and quads. If the

subject leaned forward, in this position, the stress was transferred to the

lower back.

Hmmmm....Could this mean that the travel of the path of the bar may be more

important than whether the shins were perpendicular to the floor?

I have been lifting weights for a while (mostly PL)and pushed the squat

weight up to a raw 650#'s, (no belt, no wraps, no suit, but I did have a

spotter, heh....I am not stupid). I found it very difficult to squat with

any amount of weight without maintain a fairly perpendicular shin

positioning. Since I do not use a squat suit nor have I used one in years,

I am not sure what effect the suit might have on my form.

I concluded that at least with myself, my wife and my son that the path of

the bar is a more important aspect of the squat than whether the shins are

parallel. It also seems that whether the shins are perpendicular or not so

perpendicular is dependent upon the physical structure of the squatter. Of

course again I realize that this is far from a scientific study and I have

quite a lot of room for error.

My #.02

Joe Littleton

Houston, TX

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