No Bulgarian Supplementary Exercises?

[Guest guest]

Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

<This is somewhat incorrect ... Elite Bulgarians used pulls and other

assistance exercises during their training up to the mid 1980's. Which means

that Blagoi Blagoiev used them. I have uploaded an article by Abadjiev in the

" files " section of the Supertraining list.

Now, the Bulgarian elite lifters have all but dropped pulls (although you can

see lifters doing snatch and clean pulls in the " Bulgarian Training hall

Tape " by Ironmind which dates from the late 90's). However, I do believe that

younger lifters use pulls, even in Bulgaria.>

Tom Hood replied:

Christian, The " Bulgarian " doing pulls in the IronMind video is actually

Yurik Sarkisian, a former Soviet Champion who was there training in Bulgaria.

During one of several conversations I had with Krastev (Bulgaria,

216kg Snatch) he said they never did pulls when he trained with Abadjiev. In

fact, when my training partner asked how his most recent set of

snatch pulls looked, Krastev replied " I don't know, I never did these, that

is American lifting. "

*** That last remark shows how little credence we should attach to Krastev's

comment, even though I think that it was he who achieved the heaviest snatch

ever recorded (216kg). It was not only Americans who used some pulling

exercises,

but also the Russians and many other top Eastern Europeans. Anyhow, Kurlovich

at 130kg with a Total of 472.5kg

(212.5 + 260) easily outlifted the much heavier (by over 75lbs!) Krastev

(164kg) who totalled 460kg (215 + 245), despite the fact Kurlovich trained

the " Russian way " which included pulls. Kurlovich also snatched 215kg later

at much the same bodymass. Around the same time, Nicu Vlad of Romania at a

bodymass of 99kg totalled 237.5kg (200 + 237.5) and displayed considerably

more relative strength than Krastev although his bodymass was 65kg (about

145lbs) less - not only did he train with different supplementary pulls, but

in absolute terms he outlifted many Bulgarian lifters in heavier bodymass

divisions.

In summary, fully agree with what someone else wrote - there are many ways to

" skin a cat " . Because of or despite their respective training methods,

Bulgaria and the former USSR have both produced some brilliant lifters using

their respective methods. I also agree with Ken Jakalski who also quoted

another Eastern European coach who pointed out that excellence in any sport

in any nation tends to go in cycles and it is difficult to correlate any

variations with single factors such as one coach's methodology.

I would be perfectly happy to do pulls as did Vardanian, Rigert, eyev,

Vlad, Kurlovich, Baszanowski, Zacharevich, Urrutia, Reding and many others

like that if their methods would have a similar effect on my lifting! In

saying that, of course, I recognise the pre-eminent importance of

individualising a program to suit me at a given time for a given purpose.

Dr Mel C Siff

Denver, USA

Supertraining/

[Guest guest]

Christian,

The " Bulgarian " doing pulls in the IronMind video is actually Yurik

Sarkisian, a former Soviet Champion who was there training in Bulgaria.

During one of several conversations I had with Krastev (Bulgaria,

216kg Snatch) he said they never did pulls when he trained with Abadjiev.

In fact, when my training partner asked how his most recent set of

snatch pulls looked, Krastev replied " I don't know, I never did these, that

is American lifting. "

Tom Hood

..... USA

----- Original Message -----

Tom Hood wrote:

> Some of these lifters achieved results that current

> lifters can't come close to (Blagoi Blagoev's 195.5kg snatch at 90kg,

> Asen Zlatev's 405kg total at 82.5kg). Few, if any, of these lifters

> employed pulls, good mornings, or jerk dips in their training. They

> concentrated on the competition lifts, as well as squats. This is not

> to say that the author's work is incorrect; it is reflective of the

> thinking of the time. >

Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

> This is somewhat incorrect ... Elite Bulgarians used pulls and other

> assistance exercises during their training up to the mid 1980's. Which

> means that Blagoi Blagoiev used them. I have uploaded an article by

> Abadjiev in the " files " section of the Supertraining list.

>

> Now, the Bulgarian elite lifters have all but dropped pulls (although

> you can see lifters doing snatch and clean pulls in the " Bulgarian

> Training hall Tape " by Ironmind which dates from the late 90's).

> However, I do believe that younger lifters use pulls, even in Bulgaria.

>

> On a sidenote why not talk about Vardanian and Zacharevich who did use

> several different assistance lifts and also set similarly fantastic

> records?

[Guest guest]

Mcsiff@a... wrote:

<I would be perfectly happy to do pulls as did Vardanian, Rigert,

eyev, Vlad, Kurlovich, Baszanowski, Zacharevich, Urrutia, Reding and many

others like that if their methods would have a similar effect on my

lifting! >

All these lifters have retired, and competed in an era when drug

testing was not as difficult to beat. In fact, many of the world

records of 20 years ago would still be records today. I think it

would be better to look at what the best lifters are doing today,

especially those who have equalled or exceeded the world standards of

20 years ago.

[While the use of drugs in many sports was rife then and testing was not

thorough or was

not even done then, I don't believe for one minute that modern day lifting is

as clean

as you suggest. Lifters and coaches simply have become far more skilled in

using drugs

or escaping detection today. So, let us just accept that all past and present

records have been

established with the assistance of 'ergogenic aids' and examine what other

factors such as

training methods and regimes may be responsible for producing the very best.

Mel Siff]

Thank you,

Kim Goss

Texas

[Guest guest]

Mel Siff wrote:

<While the use of drugs in many sports was rife then and testing

was not thorough or was not even done then, I don't believe for one minute that

modern day

lifting is as clean as you suggest. Lifters and coaches simply have become far

more

skilled in using drugs or escaping detection today. So, let us just accept that

all past

and present records have been established with the assistance of 'ergogenic

aids' and examine

what other factors such as training methods and regimes may be responsible for

producing the

very best.>

If today's lifters are " far more skilled in using drugs or escaping

detetection, " then why has the sport's records pretty much stagnated

over the past 20 years? In fact, Spassov told me about 11 years ago

that the stricter drug controls caused the Bulgarians to change their

technique because they could not perform the volume of lifts

necessary to perfect their pre-1988 Olympic Games technique.

What does this mean? Well, if there is less drug use, then high level

lifters cannot afford to tax their recovery ability with less sport

specific exercises such as pulls. You'll also note that generally

speaking, many of today's elite lifters are carrying less muscle mass

than the lifters of 20 years ago, suggesting that their training has

become more sport specific with emphasis on just the classical lifts.

Finally, getting back to pulling under the bar, I believe that as

soon as the bar hits the power position and just before the knees are

fully extended, maximum velocity occurs, and using the arms and traps

to help pull the bar higher is going to reduce the pulling speed

under the bar. You want to start pulling when the barbell is the

lightest. [Likewise, in running, working on full extension of the

back leg is pointless as maximum power is produced before the knee is

fully extended]. So, instead of using the arms and traps to help pull

the bar higher, use them to pull yourself under the bar.

Here's a simple test to prove this. If you can clean 200 pounds,

stand with 135 pounds at the mid-thigh and try pull yourself into the

squat position from a dead stop. It's very difficult to do this as

the bar starts moving downward immediately. Now apply just a small

amount of force with the legs as see how much easier it is to get

under. Further, you'll find that the more force you apply, the faster

you can move under the weight.

Thank you,

Kim Goss

Texas

[Guest guest]

Kim Goss wrote:

>If today's lifters are " far more skilled in using drugs or escaping

>detetection, " then why has the sport's records pretty much stagnated

>over the past 20 years?

Today athletes train on better way, but that extra training is under the

law of diminishing returns.

This simple reasoning convicted me that all of them use something they

should not. We can suppose that all top competitors are of best genetics,

and train on very good way. We have next premises:

(1) neither one top athlete is MUCH better than other top athletes in same

sport.

(2) some top athletes from time to time are caught or admitted they used

illegal ergogenic aids.

So, as conclusion we have either

(1) illegal ergogenic aids do not help much,

(2) only second class athletes use illegal ergogenic aids, and it makes

them about equally good as top athletes that do not use such aids or

(3) all top athletes use illegal ergogenic aids.

It seems to me that we must eliminate (1) and (2).

Did I miss some possibility?

As example, we have no reason and moral right to say that Rezazadeh or

Chemerkin use illegal ergogenic aids, but I speculate that they could not

be able to jerk 600 in hypothetical case such aids is allowed.

Sometimes, although rarely, much can be said with simple, tautological

reasoning.

_______________________________________________________________

Kazimir Majorinc, dipl. ing. mathematics, prof. collaborator

Faculty of Natural Sciences and Mathematics, Uni of Zagreb

Marulicev trg 19/III., HR-10000 Zagreb, p.o.box 163., Croatia

Tel.: 385-(0)1-48 95 521 and ..522 Fax: 385-(0)1-48 29 958

mailto:kmajor@... http://public.srce.hr/~kmajor

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M e r c y o f C h a o s

[Guest guest]

>If today's lifters are " far more skilled in using drugs or escaping

>detetection, " then why has the sport's records pretty much stagnated

>over the past 20 years?

Kazimir Majorinc:

> Today athletes train on better way, but that extra training is under the

> law of diminishing returns.

>

> This simple reasoning convicted me that all of them use something they

> should not. We can suppose that all top competitors are of best genetics,

> and train on very good way. We have next premises:

>

> (1) neither one top athlete is MUCH better than other top athletes in same

sport.

> (2) some top athletes from time to time are caught or admitted they used

illegal ergogenic aids.

>

> So, as conclusion we have either:

>

> (1) illegal ergogenic aids do not help much,

> (2) only second class athletes use illegal ergogenic aids, and it makes

> them about equally good as top athletes that do not use such aids or

> (3) all top athletes use illegal ergogenic aids.

>

> It seems to me that we must eliminate (1) and (2).

> Did I miss some possibility?

Well, , a counterexample to premise one. A drug-free lifter

with a supernatural squat.

> As example, we have no reason and moral right to say that Rezazadeh or

> Chemerkin use illegal ergogenic aids, but I speculate that they could not

> be able to jerk 600 in hypothetical case such aids is allowed.

Kurland

Chicago USA