Guest guest Posted September 29, 2006 Report Share Posted September 29, 2006 Dear Barbara, I spent a lot of time considering this, and have posted my decision on the CPHVA website on the school nursing page on 19/06/06. To precis; children aged 11 years are 'Gillick competent' ie they are of sufficient age and understanding to give their own consent to having their height and weight checked. They recognise the equipment, and know what it is for, and as long as the practitioner explains at the time, and allows them to ask qeuestions, there is no problem. If the child has special education needs or for any other reason the teacher and/or practitioner is not sure that they understand, then written consent must be sought. it is not necessary to measure every child in the class, as there is no suggestion to go back to weigh those who are absent, so if you are unsure about the status of consent, then leave out that child; although you may have to actually weigh him so that he doesn't feel excluded, you don't have to record it! good luck Ros > > I know we have debated this previously but could anyone throw any recent light on the issue of consent please? For the public health data collection of weights and heights of reception year and year 6 students, we were guided nationally to see al children unless parent/carer had speciafically eritten in withdrawing consent - i.e.they opted out. > > When we see children in reception years to carry out height and weight screening for our normal workload, we send home a consent form on which the parent signs giving consent for us to see the child. > > The difference we have been informed is that the data collection is not screening and as there will be no follow up, intervention or treatment, opting out is permissable. > > There are many issues and concerns regarding next year's data collection - what if a letter informing parents does not reach home? Could we use opt out for screening as often the child we wish to see does not return his consent form? I would be grateful for any feedback. > > Barbara > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2006 Report Share Posted September 30, 2006 Thanks Ros. Re: consent issues Dear Barbara,I spent a lot of time considering this, and have posted my decision on the CPHVA website on the school nursing page on 19/06/06.To precis; children aged 11 years are 'Gillick competent' ie they are of sufficient age and understanding to give their own consent to having their height and weight checked. They recognise the equipment, and know what it is for, and as long as the practitioner explains at the time, and allows them to ask qeuestions, there is no problem. If the child has special education needs or for any other reason the teacher and/or practitioner is not sure that they understand, then written consent must be sought. it is not necessary to measure every child in the class, as there is no suggestion to go back to weigh those who are absent, so if you are unsure about the status of consent, then leave out that child; although you may have to actually weigh him so that he doesn't feel excluded, you don't have to record it!good luckRos>> I know we have debated this previously but could anyone throw any recent light on the issue of consent please? For the public health data collection of weights and heights of reception year and year 6 students, we were guided nationally to see al children unless parent/carer had speciafically eritten in withdrawing consent - i.e.they opted out. > > When we see children in reception years to carry out height and weight screening for our normal workload, we send home a consent form on which the parent signs giving consent for us to see the child.> > The difference we have been informed is that the data collection is not screening and as there will be no follow up, intervention or treatment, opting out is permissable.> > There are many issues and concerns regarding next year's data collection - what if a letter informing parents does not reach home? Could we use opt out for screening as often the child we wish to see does not return his consent form? I would be grateful for any feedback.> > Barbara> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 Looking at the issue from a parent perspective rather than with my school nurse hat on, I found the data collection exercise hard work. My daughter's experience of the data collection activity started with a letter home from school which caused great angst and tears. She is big (165cm), taller than all her friends but not overweight. She begged me to sign the opt out for her which I did, but when it came down to it she felt unable to use it and conformed rather than draw attention to herself and answer questions why. Faced with the pressure of peers, presence of teachers and professionals from health what 11 year old could do any different? I had weeks of her saying I'm not eating this or that, worrying about her diet and agonising about her size. I wonder whether we should be doing this data collection in a way which does not take into consideration the psychological impact of what we are doing. GillBarbara -Todd <barbara.richardson-todd@...> wrote: Thanks Ros. Re: consent issues Dear Barbara,I spent a lot of time considering this, and have posted my decision on the CPHVA website on the school nursing page on 19/06/06.To precis; children aged 11 years are 'Gillick competent' ie they are of sufficient age and understanding to give their own consent to having their height and weight checked. They recognise the equipment, and know what it is for, and as long as the practitioner explains at the time, and allows them to ask qeuestions, there is no problem. If the child has special education needs or for any other reason the teacher and/or practitioner is not sure that they understand, then written consent must be sought. it is not necessary to measure every child in the class, as there is no suggestion to go back to weigh those who are absent, so if you are unsure about the status of consent, then leave out that child; although you may have to actually weigh him so that he doesn't feel excluded, you don't have to record it!good luckRos>> I know we have debated this previously but could anyone throw any recent light on the issue of consent please? For the public health data collection of weights and heights of reception year and year 6 students, we were guided nationally to see al children unless parent/carer had speciafically eritten in withdrawing consent - i.e.they opted out. > > When we see children in reception years to carry out height and weight screening for our normal workload, we send home a consent form on which the parent signs giving consent for us to see the child.> > The difference we have been informed is that the data collection is not screening and as there will be no follow up, intervention or treatment, opting out is permissable.> > There are many issues and concerns regarding next year's data collection - what if a letter informing parents does not reach home? Could we use opt out for screening as often the child we wish to see does not return his consent form? I would be grateful for any feedback.> > Barbara> Try the all-new . "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 In discussions with local school nurses around this issue they felt that those parents whose children were overwieght would not consent, this made me personally feel a little uncomfortable as my 11 year old refused to let me consent on her behalf. Not that she is overweight but is very body conscious. As an aside, can anyone help me as I have a new e-mail address that I am going to use in future, how do I get this changed with senate (New e-mail address is kathysoderquist@...) Re: consent issues Dear Barbara, I spent a lot of time considering this, and have posted my decision on the CPHVA website on the school nursing page on 19/06/06. To precis; children aged 11 years are 'Gillick competent' ie they are of sufficient age and understanding to give their own consent to having their height and weight checked. They recognise the equipment, and know what it is for, and as long as the practitioner explains at the time, and allows them to ask qeuestions, there is no problem. If the child has special education needs or for any other reason the teacher and/or practitioner is not sure that they understand, then written consent must be sought. it is not necessary to measure every child in the class, as there is no suggestion to go back to weigh those who are absent, so if you are unsure about the status of consent, then leave out that child; although you may have to actually weigh him so that he doesn't feel excluded, you don't have to record it! good luck Ros > > I know we have debated this previously but could anyone throw any recent light on the issue of consent please? For the public health data collection of weights and heights of reception year and year 6 students, we were guided nationally to see al children unless parent/carer had speciafically eritten in withdrawing consent - i.e.they opted out. > > When we see children in reception years to carry out height and weight screening for our normal workload, we send home a consent form on which the parent signs giving consent for us to see the child. > > The difference we have been informed is that the data collection is not screening and as there will be no follow up, intervention or treatment, opting out is permissable. > > There are many issues and concerns regarding next year's data collection - what if a letter informing parents does not reach home? Could we use opt out for screening as often the child we wish to see does not return his consent form? I would be grateful for any feedback. > > Barbara > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 Funnily enough Gill, I've had the similar response from my twin daughters. They too objected to the idea of being weighed, they are very tall for their age and fear that they will be allot heavier than their classmates. It just shows how something seemingly simple is actually quite complex. From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Gill Sent: 01 October 2006 13:37 Subject: Re: Re: consent issues Looking at the issue from a parent perspective rather than with my school nurse hat on, I found the data collection exercise hard work. My daughter's experience of the data collection activity started with a letter home from school which caused great angst and tears. She is big (165cm), taller than all her friends but not overweight. She begged me to sign the opt out for her which I did, but when it came down to it she felt unable to use it and conformed rather than draw attention to herself and answer questions why. Faced with the pressure of peers, presence of teachers and professionals from health what 11 year old could do any different? I had weeks of her saying I'm not eating this or that, worrying about her diet and agonising about her size. I wonder whether we should be doing this data collection in a way which does not take into consideration the psychological impact of what we are doing. GillBarbara -Todd <barbara.richardson-toddntlworld> wrote: Thanks Ros. Re: consent issues Dear Barbara,I spent a lot of time considering this, and have posted my decision on the CPHVA website on the school nursing page on 19/06/06.To precis; children aged 11 years are 'Gillick competent' ie they are of sufficient age and understanding to give their own consent to having their height and weight checked. They recognise the equipment, and know what it is for, and as long as the practitioner explains at the time, and allows them to ask qeuestions, there is no problem. If the child has special education needs or for any other reason the teacher and/or practitioner is not sure that they understand, then written consent must be sought. it is not necessary to measure every child in the class, as there is no suggestion to go back to weigh those who are absent, so if you are unsure about the status of consent, then leave out that child; although you may have to actually weigh him so that he doesn't feel excluded, you don't have to record it!good luckRos>> I know we have debated this previously but could anyone throw any recent light on the issue of consent please? For the public health data collection of weights and heights of reception year and year 6 students, we were guided nationally to see al children unless parent/carer had speciafically eritten in withdrawing consent - i.e.they opted out. > > When we see children in reception years to carry out height and weight screening for our normal workload, we send home a consent form on which the parent signs giving consent for us to see the child.> > The difference we have been informed is that the data collection is not screening and as there will be no follow up, intervention or treatment, opting out is permissable.> > There are many issues and concerns regarding next year's data collection - what if a letter informing parents does not reach home? Could we use opt out for screening as often the child we wish to see does not return his consent form? I would be grateful for any feedback.> > Barbara> Try the all-new . "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 The new GP contract requires us not only to record the patient's height and weight but also the wiast measurement. When people have come to see us for their sinusistis, eczema, recurrent headaches or whatever then to find that their GP wants to measure and record these things often leads to expressions of incredulity and/or laughter on the part of the patient. I have to pass it off by saying it's " govt. orders " but feel very uncomfortable about this. More seriously some patients are very upset by the idea that the GP wants to record their waist size and I am sure they are being made to feel guilty about being oversize when often their parents led them into the habit of eating too much and society does little or nothing to permit or encourage safe,affordable , enjoyable exercise. SOme patients have been so affronted by my GP colleague's insistence that waist and wt. must be recorded ( so that we can gain our QOF points and so keep up our income) that they have left the practice after many years of otherwise sound " doctor-patient " relationships. Food for thought! Malcolm On Oct 1 2006, Whittaker wrote: Funnily enough Gill, I've had the similar response from my twin daughters.They too objected to the idea of being weighed, they are very tall for theirage and fear that they will be allot heavier than their classmates. It justshows how something seemingly simple is actually quite complex._____ From: [mailto: ] OnBehalf Of Gill Sent: 01 October 2006 13:37 Subject: Re: Re: consent issuesLooking at the issue from a parent perspective rather than with my schoolnurse hat on, I found the data collection exercise hard work. My daughter'sexperience of the data collection activity started with a letter home fromschool which caused great angst and tears. She is big (165cm), taller thanall her friends but not overweight. She begged me to sign the opt out forher which I did, but when it came down to it she felt unable to use it andconformed rather than draw attention to herself and answer questions why.Faced with the pressure of peers, presence of teachers and professionalsfrom health what 11 year old could do any different? I had weeks of hersaying I'm not eating this or that, worrying about her diet and agonisingabout her size. I wonder whether we should be doing this data collection ina way which does not take into consideration the psychological impact ofwhat we are doing.GillBarbara -Todd wrote:Thanks Ros. Re: consent issuesDear Barbara,I spent a lot of time considering this, and have posted my decision on the CPHVA website on the school nursing page on 19/06/06.To precis; children aged 11 years are 'Gillick competent' ie they are of sufficient age and understanding to give their own consent to having their height and weight checked. They recognise the equipment, and know what it is for, and as long as the practitioner explains at the time, and allows them to ask qeuestions, there is no problem. If the child has special education needs or for any other reason the teacher and/or practitioner is not sure that they understand, then written consent must be sought. it is not necessary to measure every child in the class, as there is no suggestion to go back to weigh those who are absent, so if you are unsure about the status of consent, then leave out that child; although you may have to actually weigh him so that he doesn't feel excluded, you don't have to record it!good luckRos>> I know we have debated this previously but could anyone throw any recent light on the issue of consent please? For the public health data collection of weights and heights of reception year and year 6 students, we were guided nationally to see al children unless parent/carer had speciafically eritten in withdrawing consent - i.e.they opted out. > > When we see children in reception years to carry out height and weight screening for our normal workload, we send home a consent form on which the parent signs giving consent for us to see the child.> > The difference we have been informed is that the data collection is not screening and as there will be no follow up, intervention or treatment, opting out is permissable.> > There are many issues and concerns regarding next year's data collection - what if a letter informing parents does not reach home? Could we use opt out for screening as often the child we wish to see does not return his consent form? I would be grateful for any feedback.> > Barbara>_____ Try the all-new/us.rd./evt=40565/*http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html> Mail . " The New Version is radically easier to use " - The Wall StreetJournal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 The new GP contract requires us not only to record the patient's height and weight but also the wiast measurement. When people have come to see us for their sinusistis, eczema, recurrent headaches or whatever then to find that their GP wants to measure and record these things often leads to expressions of incredulity and/or laughter on the part of the patient. I have to pass it off by saying it's " govt. orders " but feel very uncomfortable about this. More seriously some patients are very upset by the idea that the GP wants to record their waist size and I am sure they are being made to feel guilty about being oversize when often their parents led them into the habit of eating too much and society does little or nothing to permit or encourage safe,affordable , enjoyable exercise. SOme patients have been so affronted by my GP colleague's insistence that waist and wt. must be recorded ( so that we can gain our QOF points and so keep up our income) that they have left the practice after many years of otherwise sound " doctor-patient " relationships. Food for thought! Malcolm On Oct 1 2006, Whittaker wrote: Funnily enough Gill, I've had the similar response from my twin daughters.They too objected to the idea of being weighed, they are very tall for theirage and fear that they will be allot heavier than their classmates. It justshows how something seemingly simple is actually quite complex._____ From: [mailto: ] OnBehalf Of Gill Sent: 01 October 2006 13:37 Subject: Re: Re: consent issuesLooking at the issue from a parent perspective rather than with my schoolnurse hat on, I found the data collection exercise hard work. My daughter'sexperience of the data collection activity started with a letter home fromschool which caused great angst and tears. She is big (165cm), taller thanall her friends but not overweight. She begged me to sign the opt out forher which I did, but when it came down to it she felt unable to use it andconformed rather than draw attention to herself and answer questions why.Faced with the pressure of peers, presence of teachers and professionalsfrom health what 11 year old could do any different? I had weeks of hersaying I'm not eating this or that, worrying about her diet and agonisingabout her size. I wonder whether we should be doing this data collection ina way which does not take into consideration the psychological impact ofwhat we are doing.GillBarbara -Todd wrote:Thanks Ros. Re: consent issuesDear Barbara,I spent a lot of time considering this, and have posted my decision on the CPHVA website on the school nursing page on 19/06/06.To precis; children aged 11 years are 'Gillick competent' ie they are of sufficient age and understanding to give their own consent to having their height and weight checked. They recognise the equipment, and know what it is for, and as long as the practitioner explains at the time, and allows them to ask qeuestions, there is no problem. If the child has special education needs or for any other reason the teacher and/or practitioner is not sure that they understand, then written consent must be sought. it is not necessary to measure every child in the class, as there is no suggestion to go back to weigh those who are absent, so if you are unsure about the status of consent, then leave out that child; although you may have to actually weigh him so that he doesn't feel excluded, you don't have to record it!good luckRos>> I know we have debated this previously but could anyone throw any recent light on the issue of consent please? For the public health data collection of weights and heights of reception year and year 6 students, we were guided nationally to see al children unless parent/carer had speciafically eritten in withdrawing consent - i.e.they opted out. > > When we see children in reception years to carry out height and weight screening for our normal workload, we send home a consent form on which the parent signs giving consent for us to see the child.> > The difference we have been informed is that the data collection is not screening and as there will be no follow up, intervention or treatment, opting out is permissable.> > There are many issues and concerns regarding next year's data collection - what if a letter informing parents does not reach home? Could we use opt out for screening as often the child we wish to see does not return his consent form? I would be grateful for any feedback.> > Barbara>_____ Try the all-new/us.rd./evt=40565/*http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html> Mail . " The New Version is radically easier to use " - The Wall StreetJournal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 I agree. I think the year/age we do it is not suitable for either the child or the school. The previous year 5 may be preferrable as perhaps they would be less body conscious at 9-10 rather than 10-11, also we would not have to worry about SATS which limits the time in which we can access the school. Incorporating the measurements in other activities makes it fun, if only we had the time and resources to have a health promotion session, with displays of healthy food and physical activity, a drop-in for the children afterwards to discuss any issues etc. As it is a government must do and as it now looks increasingly likely that there will be no further investment into the school nursing service even after all the recommendations, I fear there is little we can do. Any suggestions welcome! Re: consent issuesDear Barbara,I spent a lot of time considering this, and have posted my decision on the CPHVA website on the school nursing page on 19/06/06.To precis; children aged 11 years are 'Gillick competent' ie they are of sufficient age and understanding to give their own consent to having their height and weight checked. They recognise the equipment, and know what it is for, and as long as the practitioner explains at the time, and allows them to ask qeuestions, there is no problem. If the child has special education needs or for any other reason the teacher and/or practitioner is not sure that they understand, then written consent must be sought. it is not necessary to measure every child in the class, as there is no suggestion to go back to weigh those who are absent, so if you are unsure about the status of consent, then leave out that child; although you may have to actually weigh him so that he doesn't feel excluded, you don't have to record it!good luckRos>> I know we have debated this previously but could anyone throw any recent light on the issue of consent please? For the public health data collection of weights and heights of reception year and year 6 students, we were guided nationally to see al children unless parent/carer had speciafically eritten in withdrawing consent - i.e.they opted out. > > When we see children in reception years to carry out height and weight screening for our normal workload, we send home a consent form on which the parent signs giving consent for us to see the child.> > The difference we have been informed is that the data collection is not screening and as there will be no follow up, intervention or treatment, opting out is permissable.> > There are many issues and concerns regarding next year's data collection - what if a letter informing parents does not reach home? Could we use opt out for screening as often the child we wish to see does not return his consent form? I would be grateful for any feedback.> > Barbara>_____ Try the all-new/us.rd./evt=40565/*http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html> Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" - The Wall StreetJournal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2006 Report Share Posted October 2, 2006 I agree. I think the year/age we do it is not suitable for either the child or the school. The previous year 5 may be preferrable as perhaps they would be less body conscious at 9-10 rather than 10-11, also we would not have to worry about SATS which limits the time in which we can access the school. Incorporating the measurements in other activities makes it fun, if only we had the time and resources to have a health promotion session, with displays of healthy food and physical activity, a drop-in for the children afterwards to discuss any issues etc. As it is a government must do and as it now looks increasingly likely that there will be no further investment into the school nursing service even after all the recommendations, I fear there is little we can do. Any suggestions welcome! Re: consent issuesDear Barbara,I spent a lot of time considering this, and have posted my decision on the CPHVA website on the school nursing page on 19/06/06.To precis; children aged 11 years are 'Gillick competent' ie they are of sufficient age and understanding to give their own consent to having their height and weight checked. They recognise the equipment, and know what it is for, and as long as the practitioner explains at the time, and allows them to ask qeuestions, there is no problem. If the child has special education needs or for any other reason the teacher and/or practitioner is not sure that they understand, then written consent must be sought. it is not necessary to measure every child in the class, as there is no suggestion to go back to weigh those who are absent, so if you are unsure about the status of consent, then leave out that child; although you may have to actually weigh him so that he doesn't feel excluded, you don't have to record it!good luckRos>> I know we have debated this previously but could anyone throw any recent light on the issue of consent please? For the public health data collection of weights and heights of reception year and year 6 students, we were guided nationally to see al children unless parent/carer had speciafically eritten in withdrawing consent - i.e.they opted out. > > When we see children in reception years to carry out height and weight screening for our normal workload, we send home a consent form on which the parent signs giving consent for us to see the child.> > The difference we have been informed is that the data collection is not screening and as there will be no follow up, intervention or treatment, opting out is permissable.> > There are many issues and concerns regarding next year's data collection - what if a letter informing parents does not reach home? Could we use opt out for screening as often the child we wish to see does not return his consent form? I would be grateful for any feedback.> > Barbara>_____ Try the all-new/us.rd./evt=40565/*http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html> Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" - The Wall StreetJournal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2006 Report Share Posted October 3, 2006 Dear Barbara, We are having this same issue in North Surrey. I have passed this on to our Clinical governance lead. Her initial findings are that it is naive of the DoH to use an opt out system for the very reason you stated, if the letter doesn't reach the parent! I will let you know what we decide. Regards >>> barbara.richardson-todd@... 09/29/06 4:30 pm >>> I know we have debated this previously but could anyone throw any recent light on the issue of consent please? For the public health data collection of weights and heights of reception year and year 6 students, we were guided nationally to see al children unless parent/carer had speciafically eritten in withdrawing consent - i.e.they opted out. When we see children in reception years to carry out height and weight screening for our normal workload, we send home a consent form on which the parent signs giving consent for us to see the child. The difference we have been informed is that the data collection is not screening and as there will be no follow up, intervention or treatment, opting out is permissable. There are many issues and concerns regarding next year's data collection - what if a letter informing parents does not reach home? Could we use opt out for screening as often the child we wish to see does not return his consent form? I would be grateful for any feedback. Barbara This message is from North Surrey Primary Care Trust and may contain privileged or confidential information solely for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us by telephone or email (to the numbers or address above) immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 I was really interested in the discussion you triggered Barbara around the data collection of weights and heights as it has been exercising me as well - I just think it so unethical to measure children and do nothing about it. In a couple of places I am working they are using screeners to do the work - even if it is not screening - as there are not enough school nurses and the information seems to be just going into a big whole. Anyway I met with someone last week who is working at the DH on the Choosing Health outcomes and tells me there is a lot of concern in the DH itself and being fed back to them about the weight and height measurements for the obesity campaign. I got from her a contact name if any of Senate members want to share their concerns - please email Tony.Armstrong@... If I learn anymore - I will put it on SENATE Regards Margaret consent issues I know we have debated this previously but could anyone throw any recent light on the issue of consent please? For the public health data collection of weights and heights of reception year and year 6 students, we were guided nationally to see al children unless parent/carer had speciafically eritten in withdrawing consent - i.e.they opted out. When we see children in reception years to carry out height and weight screening for our normal workload, we send home a consent form on which the parent signs giving consent for us to see the child. The difference we have been informed is that the data collection is not screening and as there will be no follow up, intervention or treatment, opting out is permissable. There are many issues and concerns regarding next year's data collection - what if a letter informing parents does not reach home? Could we use opt out for screening as often the child we wish to see does not return his consent form? I would be grateful for any feedback. Barbara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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