Re: Re: Alpha Coherence Benefits

[Guest guest]

Alpha Theta could help with a reversal by getting at the underlying issues that

led the brain to that pattern in the first place. Or it could be difficult to

achieve the state, depending on how much alpha there was in the back. If alpha

is low in the back, I'd try alpha up or alpha coherence first to get into that

state well before trying to slide down into the crossover point. People with

too much theta sometimes have a hard time coming at it from the observer state.

pete

>

> From: " tiabin86 " <dpatrick@...>

> Date: 2006/04/09 Sun PM 07:24:36 EDT

>

> Subject: Re: Alpha Coherence Benefits

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mark,

Draw the two wave forms lined up peak to peak and valley to valley (a

synchronous wave). When you sum the (let's say) 6u peaks of the two, you get

12u. When you subtract one from the other, you get 0u. You can train with

feedback on both sum and difference, but I'm liking it better simply subtracting

the difference from the sum and training that up.

Pete

>

> From: " Mark Baddeley " <baddeley@...>

> Date: 2006/04/09 Sun PM 10:15:29 EDT

> < >

> Subject: Re: Alpha Coherence Benefits

>

> Hi Pete

> If I understand the rationale you are providing I would expect to increase the

sum between the two channels or to decrease the difference in order to train

synchrony.

> Mark

> Alpha Coherence Benefits

> >

> > Hi,

> I've been doing some reading on alpha/theta training recently as well

> as alpha coherence training. In the alpha/theta training section of

> " Getting Started with Neurofeedback " by Demos, he mentions that

> coherence can likely be trained by just using a bipolar montage (as

> opposed to actually doing a coherence protocol)...

>

> But yet in the alpha/theta section he gives a lot of case reports in

> which almost everyone used a monopolar (reference was at a1 or a2)

> setup for the alpha reward. I'm curious why they didn't do a bipolar

> montage in order to increase alpha coherence (which is associated with

> peak performance), while at the same time achieving the same

> alpha/theta training results. In other words, kill two birds with one

> stone.

>

> Can any body enlighten me?

> Thanks,

> --

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Pete,

For what types of issues would you recommend alpha synchrony training and at

which sites?

I've been much interested in the method you've described for computing

synchrony and realized that simply subtracting a difference from the sum is

not what one should do in the Expression Evaluator because

( In1 + In2 ) - ( In1 - In2 ) = ( In2 + In2 )

yields a signal based on only one of the channels.

So shouldn't the following be used instead ?

( In1 + In2 ) - ( ABS ( In1 - In2 ) )

It also seems advantageous to do something like:

(sum / 2) - ( ABS ( difference) )

This yields a signal less affected by the average amplitude of the sites.

Otherwise, the signal will tend to be inflated when the average amplitude

goes up..

I'm trying this one out.

\

Larry

Larry , PhD

155 East 38th Street (corner Third Avenue)

New York NY 10016

212-697-5990

llewis@...

Alpha Coherence Benefits

>> >

>> > Hi,

>> I've been doing some reading on alpha/theta training recently as well

>> as alpha coherence training. In the alpha/theta training section of

>> " Getting Started with Neurofeedback " by Demos, he mentions that

>> coherence can likely be trained by just using a bipolar montage (as

>> opposed to actually doing a coherence protocol)...

>>

>> But yet in the alpha/theta section he gives a lot of case reports in

>> which almost everyone used a monopolar (reference was at a1 or a2)

>> setup for the alpha reward. I'm curious why they didn't do a bipolar

>> montage in order to increase alpha coherence (which is associated with

>> peak performance), while at the same time achieving the same

>> alpha/theta training results. In other words, kill two birds with one

>> stone.

>>

>> Can any body enlighten me?

>> Thanks,

>> --

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

,

What would you recommend for someone who has too much alpha? Typically if the alpha is too high -- and I realize that's a bit vague -- and will not go down, I train theta up and let it "catch up" to alpha. So far that has worked pretty well for my clients, but I would be interested in your opinion. I never inhibit alpha, but I am not sure that is an issue.

Mike

______________________________ , M.Ed.

From: Van Deusen

Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 3:18 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Alpha Coherence Benefits

Alpha Theta could help with a reversal by getting at the underlying issues that led the brain to that pattern in the first place. Or it could be difficult to achieve the state, depending on how much alpha there was in the back. If alpha is low in the back, I'd try alpha up or alpha coherence first to get into that state well before trying to slide down into the crossover point. People with too much theta sometimes have a hard time coming at it from the observer state.pete> > From: "tiabin86" <dpatrick@...>> Date: 2006/04/09 Sun PM 07:24:36 EDT> > Subject: Re: Alpha Coherence Benefits> >

[Guest guest]

Mark,

Kind of confusing. Normally you try to DECREASE phase, since zero is perfectly

in phase and 180 degrees is exactly out of phase. Certainly if you INCREASE the

phase angle, you would be likely to decrease coherence, though coherence is

independent of phase according to what I've always heard.

However, bipolar training which subtracts the signal at once site from another

and trains DOWN the difference, should be REDUCING the phase angle--making the

timing of the two signals more alike--and how that would result in reduced

coherence is beyond me. Love to hear more of an explanation of this.

That reduction of hypercoherence in autistic spectrum is desirable, I absolutely

agree. But I'm always intrigued by comments like this one which state that

something is happening in bipolar montages, since there is no possible way to

actually KNOW that it is happening.

Oh well, if it works...

Pete

>

> From: " Mark Darling " <mdarling@...>

> Date: 2006/04/11 Tue PM 07:41:06 EDT

> < >

> Subject: Re: Alpha Coherence Benefits

>

> Pete,

You might find this message from Rob Coben on one of the other lists very

interesting:

> >Interhemispheric, bipolar training is actually coherence down

> training. It

> >is actuallly phase up training between the two sites which leads

> to

> >coherence being trained down as phase and coherence have a

> reciprocal

> >relationship.

[Guest guest]

Larry,

I'd use the synchrony training at O1 and O2 (referenced to linked ears) or at P3

and P4 with the same reference. It is a training that ideally moves you toward

the " achieved " mind described in the work done with yogis, meditators and

others. It is the zone/presence state, deeply relaxing and at the same time

fully present in the moment. Tom Collura has been writing about it on the

brainm list, in relation to his experience at Jim Hardt's center in San Fran (I

believe), and he gave a very nice list of some of the issues that hardt includes

in his work toward synchrony:

" The issues dealt with in Biocybernaut are forgiveness, clarity,personal goals,

ego, relationships, plans, meaning, what you want to do with your life, and so

on. "

I've been fooling around with an expression using the absolute values of sum and

difference (I don't follow why you have the = and right side of the equation in

your first), but I'll give a try to the final alternative you suggested as well.

Thanks for the ideas.

pete

>

> From: " Larry " <llewis@...>

> Date: 2006/04/10 Mon PM 09:46:07 EDT

> < >

> Subject: Re: Re: Alpha Coherence Benefits

>

> For what types of issues would you recommend alpha synchrony training and at

which sites?

I've been much interested in the method you've described for computing

synchrony and realized that simply subtracting a difference from the sum is

not what one should do in the Expression Evaluator because

( In1 + In2 ) - ( In1 - In2 ) = ( In2 + In2 )

yields a signal based on only one of the channels.

So shouldn't the following be used instead ?

( In1 + In2 ) - ( ABS ( In1 - In2 ) )

It also seems advantageous to do something like:

(sum / 2) - ( ABS ( difference) )

This yields a signal less affected by the average amplitude of the sites.

Otherwise, the signal will tend to be inflated when the average amplitude

goes up..

I'm trying this one out.

\

Larry

[Guest guest]

Mike,

I look at how fast the alpha is (peak frequency) and where it is and how it

shifts from eyes closed to eyes open states. Slow alpha (in the 8-10 Hz range)

is much more problematic than alpha 10-12 Hz. Alpha in the back of the head is

less an issue than alpha in the front. And alpha with eyes open is a bigger

problem than eyes closed.

I definitely train alpha down if it stays high with eyes open. I'd be more

inclined to train beta up than theta, since alpha and theta can co-exist quite

easily, while alpha and beta tend to be antagonists. If you have slow alpha in

the front of the head, Jay Gunkelman suggests training up faster alpha in the

back (eyes-closed) to shift the neurons from the slower thalamic rhythm

generator to the faster one, which causes slow alpha to drop.

Pete

>

> From: " " <martin_m@...>

> Date: 2006/04/10 Mon PM 11:41:41 EDT

> < >

> Subject: Re: Re: Alpha Coherence Benefits

>

> ,

>

> What would you recommend for someone who has too much alpha? Typically if the

alpha is too high -- and I realize that's a bit vague -- and will not go down, I

train theta up and let it " catch up " to alpha. So far that has worked pretty

well for my clients, but I would be interested in your opinion. I never inhibit

alpha, but I am not sure that is an issue.

>

> Mike

[Guest guest]

,

BioExplorer's trial version would allow you to play with some protocols and do

some training with it, but you would need to get a synchrony protocol to use

with the software (I can send you one if you wish).

However, Brainmaster 2.5 could definitely do synchrony training, and I think it

may be possible in 2.0 as well. We seem to have gotten into a black hold here

about Phase relationships. Training signals into phase (which is training the

" phase angle " down) is really improving phase. That is definitely doable in

BrainMaster, so if you are happy with/comfortable with that software, I wouldn't

take on buying and learning a whole new package.

Pete

>

> From: " tiabin86 " <dpatrick@...>

> Date: 2006/04/25 Tue PM 04:48:48 EDT

>

> Subject: Re: Alpha Coherence Benefits

>

> Pete,

I'm not actually very familiar with the bioexplorer software. If I

were to want to give something like this a try, would their trial

version enable me to? (Since I do not believe the standard brainmaster

software comes with the capability to train coherence up and phase

down at the same time)

Also... is this synchrony a standard protocol that comes with the

bioexplorer, or is this a protocol you created yourself? I've only

been able to take a cursory glance over the bioexplorer website for

the time being, but it looks like some fabulous software.

--

If you wanted to do synchrony training, which is probably more

powerful than simple coherence, since it includes coherence and phase,

a better way to do so would be to train a 2-channel protocol (with a

linked or common reference, so both sites are compared against the

same value), measuring the sum of the channels and the difference of

the channels. Train to increase the difference between these two (I'm

playing with a BioExplorer design that does exactly this). The

greater the difference, the higher the synchrony.

[Guest guest]

,

Yes, BMer has a sum-channel mode that automatically puts the sum of the two

signals in channel 1 and the difference in channel 2. Since the sum of two

in-phase signals is very large and the difference is very small, by training to

increase the difference between those two numbers, you are probably training

synchrony. The 2.5 software has some nice sound fields to support the synchrony

state, so you should be able to do quite nicely with that setup. I suspect, if

you get comfortable with the new protocol wizard on 2.5, you could get the

difference of the sum and difference, which would give you a single number to

focus on rather than two thresholds.

Pete

>

> From: " tiabin86 " <dpatrick@...>

> Date: 2006/04/27 Thu PM 02:03:06 EDT

>

> Subject: Re: Alpha Coherence Benefits

>

> Pete,

It took a little while but I think I've got a pretty clear picture on

the difference between phase and coherence.

Tom Collura mentioned (on brainm) using the sum channel mode on the

brainmaster to train synchrony. Would this effectively be what you're

talking about in regards to training both at the same time? I.e. a

reward on channel 1 for alpha, and inhibit on channel 2 for alpha

while in sum channel mode?

--