Re: Mandated Hospital Privileges for Chiropractic Physicians?

[Guest guest]

Larry,

RE:

“As a profession we do more than our share of complaining and blaming”

Friday rant...

I reserve the right to complain, kvetch, criticize, and blow out candles which are shedding a poor light when the blinding light of truth is being ignored or shoved under a bushel by someone is a moron.

You can be an “institutional moron” like when you are giving glowing recommendations to a colleague emigrating to a foreign country in spite of being a known dangerous surgeon (see Kaiser doc goes to Australia).

You can be a narrow minded moron who tells patients who are experiencing relief from care (alternative to those in which you were trained) and instead of investigating said care, you denigrate it; you then become an ignoramus/moron.

You can be a chiropractic fundamentalist moron who says you refuse to do allopathic exams and only assess and treat spinal subluxations and have no responsibility for proper non-chirppractic diagnosis.

You can be a listserve moron who quits a lively listserve and loses the benefit of many bright colleagues because too many varied opinions are expressed.

You can be a medical sycophant moron who refuses to see the value of naming and treating subluxations themselves for fear of being denigrated by other doctors.

If I can’t complain to you guys, I’m going to start my own group. Don’t even think about calling me to join. You can’t. I had trouble getting in.

By the way, I personally get frustrated and vent here precisely because I care about the patients who are being mishandled by others. After venting, I write a nice letter in a carefully medical/chiropractic edifying tone to the attending to build bridges; (...“you are the doctor but I know a my way around the body”.

(i.e. 2 years ago)

Dear Dr. M.:

Thank you for the referral of Mr. M. for management of his low back condition. I concur that he has a lumbar facet sprain causing nerve sensation around his right knee.

I performed some orthopedic tests to rule out knee problems. Straight leg raise and other spinal tests did not seem to indicate frank nerve root irritation as in a disc herniation. He has palpatory pain and restricted joints in his right lumbar spine that do not replicate on the left.

He also reported a history of lower rib cage pain stemming from an old back injury (1975) which is aggravated by computer work and air travel which he does constantly. I found a subluxation [yes, a subluxation; not a spinal lesion, a restriction, or a nociceptive site of limited joint play; a SUBLUXATION. If things go well, you’re going to see a LOT of this word so accept it and learn what it means; nyahahaha, we will rule the world! Or at least get some decent reimbursement] of lower right ribs (costovertebral joints) which I was able to adjust with good results.

I am treating him with ultrasound, deep tissue massage, and spinal adjustments [not manipulations, adjustments; P.T.’s, overbearing moms, and grouchy spouses “manipulate”, chiropractors ADJUST and we do it better than anyone else] . On the second visit, he reported a reduction in pain around his knee. As usual, I will also instruct him in some simple but effective exercises for his low back.

I offered him the choice of patching him up with a couple of treatments (to reduce pain) or a dozen treatments with aggressive exercise to stabilize his longstanding condition. He opted for the latter and will be coming in for about 6 weeks total.

Please feel free to call me at any time to discuss Mr. M’s condition should you so desire. Thank you for allowing me to help with this gentleman’s care.

Sincerely,

BJ Palmer (just kidding)

(Emphasized phrases added, of course).

I continue to receive referrals from Dr. M. and I always write a nice short note explaining what I am doing and copy it to the patient. Before you know it, we will be riding in the front of the bus!

( E. Abrahamson, D.C.)

Chiropractic physician

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

315 Second Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

503-635-6246

Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com

From: " Larry Oliver, DC " <lloliverdc@...>

Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:05:16 -0700

Chiro ListServe < >

Subject: RE: " Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians? "

Very well stated Minga. As a profession we do more than our share of complaining and blaming as evidenced by some of the material on this listsereve which is directed at the medical profession and drug companies. You are right, it is understandable; but never-the-less it is generally negative. Putting out someone else’s candle doesn’t make yours any brighter!

However, forcing the issue with a law may not be the best choice. How can we as a profession convince the medical profession that their patients would benefit from our care? That we are well-trained and experienced? That chiropractic is safe and effective? That we are professionals and part of mainstream health care? I would be concerned as to what negative press might be used publicly in an effort to defeat a measure like that. Our profession could end up loosing a lot more than we might gain with staff privileges.

Larry Oliver, DC

The information contained in this electronic message may contain protected health information which is confidential under applicable law and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the recipient of the message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or disclosure of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received the communication in error, please notify Heresco Chiropractic & Associates, 408 NW 7th St, Corvallis, OR 97330, 541-757-9933 and purge the communication immediately without making any copy or distribution

Vern,

One of the biggest obstacles I see in acheiving this goal is our own profession's animosity towards allopathic medicine. We don't hear of PTs denegrating MDs in public forum. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. However, the DC profession has a reputation of carrying a chip on the shoulder. I'm not saying that the chip isn't warranted at times or hasn't been nurtured over the years by professional denegration. However..the times they need to be a changin...We need to acheive some sort of interprofessional communication skills that removes the knee jerk response of perceived persecution. I think if we can look at our differences simply as a need to educate and communicate on a professional level, we can succeed. We need to recognize our differences and appreciate them. Case in point, the recent discussion on the listerv; when an MD interfers with a treatment plan, we should politely and professionally communicate with them. BE open to listening to their views on why they feel the need to change treatments. BE prepared to respond with educated reasoning if you disagree. Be prepared to graciously change your opinion as well. In the early years of my business, I had the same problem. The issue still occurs, but I rarely consider it a problem now. Just a need to communicate. I began to see that a simple phone call or well written letter, opened doors like no amount of interdisciplinary complaining could do. ( I'n not saying the doc who asked for advice on our listserv was complaining. I wish there would've been a forum like this when I was first in business. I felt the comments he made were well directed. It's good to come to peers for advice before taking it 'public'.) I saw that 90% of the MDs I communicated with were open to listening and were actually enlightened by the experience. They began referring to me and other DCs after being educated. I began to establish referral networks by mutual respect. Yes, at times it does get tedious to re-explain. At times I don't have the energy to deal with it, but I still firmly believe that the best way to acheive this goal of DCs in hospitals is for as many of us as possible to begin/continue to converse with mutual respect.

I think the plan you have is excellent. We should be in more places than Physician's Hospital. I'm all for the effort. I think we need to embrace this idea.

What can I do to help?

Minga Guerrero DC

In a message dated 6/9/2005 7:05:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, vas@... writes:

Hi Dear Colleagues:

Here in Oregon we are considering legislation that would mandate hospitals have chiropractors on staff.

I would like your quick responses as per yes and no on this issue and why. I know how busy you all are and a very brief answer is fine.

The " Doctor of Physical Therapy " is coming, they are attempting to gain direct access, and they are already in the hospitals. As a consequence the medical community knows what the heck they do, what their training consists of, work daily with the PTs, and as a result refer freely to them.

On the other hand many is the time the MDs have no clue what we do, what our training consists of, and as a consequence do not refer as freely to us as the PTs.

Would are being in the hospitals provide a venue by which we could educate our medical cousins to the superiority of what we do, educate them to our training, educate them to our version of wellness care, to the evidence albeit light of the somato-visceral effects of SMT etc., etc.

....and would not being in the hospitals elevate the profession in the eyes of the uneducated lay public, which while in the hospitals as staff members could also educate within the back drop of the hospital setting.

Lastly we could provide some very good services to patients locked up in the hospitals and we are losing a huge market share (my opinion) out of those ER rooms eg., workers' comp cases and autos.....

Thanks for your time and consideration,

Vern Saboe, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO

Executive Board Member

Lobbyist

Chiropractic Association of Oregon

Albany, Oregon

OregonDCs rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

OregonDCs rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

[Guest guest]

If there are chiros. in Oregon with hospital privileges. they aren't’ talking.

Do you think they want every Tom, Dick, and BJ coming in with them?

Knowing some of the wackos in chiropractic, perhaps not.

Present company excluded.

( E. Abrahamson, D.C.)

Chiropractic physician

Lake Oswego Chiropractic Clinic

315 Second Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

503-635-6246

Website: http://www.lakeoswegochiro.com

From: deadmed <deadmed@...>

Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:06:04 -0700

< >, <lloliverdc@...>, sunny Kierstyn <skrndc1@...>

Subject: Re: " Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians? "

Although I agree that most DO's don't want to take the time to adjust, Wouldn't the hospitals rather find one that does than be forced by law to place chiros in there. It could have a cost effective element for them though. They could drop manipulation from the DO curriculum opening up what...3hrs or so of class time lol and allowing for more DO stuff. I can see them using us especially for cases that they have tried everything with or just want to get the patient out of there. If the adjustment works, whew great! ya know

Doing rounds and adjusting people to help assist with the healing process of all kinds of patients in the hospital would be quite fun i'd have to say. Also, it would help bring us together in a professional enviornment hence breaking down the barriers of ignorance and fear. It has the makings of changing the face of chiropractic a bit.

Dr. ph Medlin D.C.

Spine Tree Chiropractic

1627 NE Alberta St. #6

Portland, OR 97211

Ph: 503-788-6800

c: 503-889-6204

RE: " Mandated Hospital Privliges for Chiropractic Physicians? "

Very well stated Minga. As a profession we do more than our share of complaining and blaming as evidenced by some of the material on this listsereve which is directed at the medical profession and drug companies. You are right, it is understandable; but never-the-less it is generally negative. Putting out someone else's candle doesn't make yours any brighter!

However, forcing the issue with a law may not be the best choice. How can we as a profession convince the medical profession that their patients would benefit from our care? That we are well-trained and experienced? That chiropractic is safe and effective? That we are professionals and part of mainstream health care? I would be concerned as to what negative press might be used publicly in an effort to defeat a measure like that. Our profession could end up loosing a lot more than we might gain with staff privileges.

Larry Oliver, DC

The information contained in this electronic message may contain protected health information which is confidential under applicable law and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the recipient of the message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or disclosure of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received the communication in error, please notify Heresco Chiropractic & Associates, 408 NW 7th St, Corvallis, OR 97330, 541-757-9933 and purge the communication immediately without making any copy or distribution

Vern,

One of the biggest obstacles I see in acheiving this goal is our own profession's animosity towards allopathic medicine. We don't hear of PTs denegrating MDs in public forum. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. However, the DC profession has a reputation of carrying a chip on the shoulder. I'm not saying that the chip isn't warranted at times or hasn't been nurtured over the years by professional denegration. However..the times they need to be a changin...We need to acheive some sort of interprofessional communication skills that removes the knee jerk response of perceived persecution. I think if we can look at our differences simply as a need to educate and communicate on a professional level, we can succeed. We need to recognize our differences and appreciate them. Case in point, the recent discussion on the listerv; when an MD interfers with a treatment plan, we should politely and professionally communicate with them. BE open to listening to their views on why they feel the need to change treatments. BE prepared to respond with educated reasoning if you disagree. Be prepared to graciously change your opinion as well. In the early years of my business, I had the same problem. The issue still occurs, but I rarely consider it a problem now. Just a need to communicate. I began to see that a simple phone call or well written letter, opened doors like no amount of interdisciplinary complaining could do. ( I'n not saying the doc who asked for advice on our listserv was complaining. I wish there would've been a forum like this when I was first in business. I felt the comments he made were well directed. It's good to come to peers for advice before taking it 'public'.) I saw that 90% of the MDs I communicated with were open to listening and were actually enlightened by the experience. They began referring to me and other DCs after being educated. I began to establish referral networks by mutual respect. Yes, at times it does get tedious to re-explain. At times I don't have the energy to deal with it, but I still firmly believe that the best way to acheive this goal of DCs in hospitals is for as many of us as possible to begin/continue to converse with mutual respect.

I think the plan you have is excellent. We should be in more places than Physician's Hospital. I'm all for the effort. I think we need to embrace this idea.

What can I do to help?

Minga Guerrero DC

In a message dated 6/9/2005 7:05:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, vas@... writes:

Hi Dear Colleagues:

Here in Oregon we are considering legislation that would mandate hospitals have chiropractors on staff.

I would like your quick responses as per yes and no on this issue and why. I know how busy you all are and a very brief answer is fine.

The " Doctor of Physical Therapy " is coming, they are attempting to gain direct access, and they are already in the hospitals. As a consequence the medical community knows what the heck they do, what their training consists of, work daily with the PTs, and as a result refer freely to them.

On the other hand many is the time the MDs have no clue what we do, what our training consists of, and as a consequence do not refer as freely to us as the PTs.

Would are being in the hospitals provide a venue by which we could educate our medical cousins to the superiority of what we do, educate them to our training, educate them to our version of wellness care, to the evidence albeit light of the somato-visceral effects of SMT etc., etc.

...and would not being in the hospitals elevate the profession in the eyes of the uneducated lay public, which while in the hospitals as staff members could also educate within the back drop of the hospital setting.

Lastly we could provide some very good services to patients locked up in the hospitals and we are losing a huge market share (my opinion) out of those ER rooms eg., workers' comp cases and autos.....

Thanks for your time and consideration,

Vern Saboe, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO

Executive Board Member

Lobbyist

Chiropractic Association of Oregon

Albany, Oregon

OregonDCs rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

OregonDCs rules:

1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.

2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

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