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In a message dated 9/21/03 10:03:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

karenr@... writes:

> You can get a wine saver device to keep a vaccuum inside the bottle as you

> use up the oil, but you'd have to transfer the CLO into a bottle that fits

> it. The one I got is called Vacu-Vin.

Radiant Life actually sells these specifically for the CLO. I don't have

one, so I'm not sure if it requires any bottle transfer, but I'm guessing it

doesn't since that is the purpose they sell it for.

Chris

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Hi Daphne,

You can get a wine saver device to keep a vaccuum inside the bottle as you

use up the oil, but you'd have to transfer the CLO into a bottle that fits

it. The one I got is called Vacu-Vin.

-

>>Does it make sense to take CLO with a vitamin E supplement (thorne)?

Do I need to worry about oxidation of the pufa & free radicals, and

does taking it with E help that issue?

We get carlson's and refrigerate but it lasts months.

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>>>I'm not disputing anything said here but will point out that vitamin D is

an

antioxidant, so the issue is not as bad as with fish oil.

---->i knew you were going to say that. LOL. do you know of any evidence

that vitamin D stores are depleted by ingesting PUFAs? so far, all the stuff

i've read has found that PUFAs deplete vitamin E stores. vitamin E is part

of the antioxidant network that the body uses to quench free radicals

including those causing lipid peroxidation, so i'm wondering if that's

because it's more efficient than using vitamin D, or if it's simply more

studied? i'm going to be taking vary large doses of fish oil as per my ND's

recommendation, and i will definitely be taking vitamin E along with it as a

safeguard, besides, i would take E anyways. if i knew for a fact that some

of the vitamin D in the fish oil neutralized oxidized PUFAs i might not take

as much though, but i haven't read anything to that effect, although it

sounds plausible in theory. if you have any evidence of it, please do post

it.

>>>Also, wheat germ oil does not contain the full spectrum of tocotrienols--

it

contains miniscule quantities of alpha and beta tocotrienols, and does not

contain gamma and delta tocotrienols at all.

---->where did you get that info? according to standard process their wheat

germ oil contains the complete vitamin E complex.

>>>>On the other hand, red palm oil is

very, very high in all of the tocotrienols.

---->how much is " very, very high " ? all i have found is on the TT website

that gives a parts per million graph, but i'm not sure how that compares to

other sources in terms of ppm. wheat germ oils is 65% vitamin E by weight.

i'd guess that's higher than 1200 ppm (for palm oil)?

>>>Additionally, red palm oil can be

used as a food rather than a supplement, displacing other fats, is safe to

do

light cooking with, because it is high in saturated fat and has virtually no

pufa, and contains about 65% of the total vitamin E that wheat germ oil

does.

---->where did you find this figure? one tiny perle of wheat germ oil

contains almost 400 IUs vitamin E, so...would i only have to consume approx.

1.5 little drops of palm oil to get the same amount of vitamin E? also, i

don't *want* to replace my other oils/fats which happen to be CO, lard,

butter and animal fat! i'm eating these all for good reason, and i'm not

interested in replacing them with palm oil at the moment. i take such a tiny

amount of wheat germ oil (1 perle per day - the size of a raisin) that it

doesn't replace other oils in my diet. if someone *wants* to replace other

oils in their diet, then palm oil would probably be a better bet than wheat

germ oil, though. another thing, i don't think i'm actually getting enough

LA in my diet and i know this tiny raisin-sized drop of wheatgerm oil is not

much, but maybe i can get a smidgeon of LA from it. in terms of PUFA though,

it's quite insignifcant. volume-wise, i'm going to be taking about about 48x

more CLO than wheatgerm oil, so that's obviously of *much* more concern in

terms of PUFA intake. maybe i'll up the wheatgerm oil though so the ratio is

close to 24x.

>>>IOW, I don't see any reason at all to consume wheat germ oil.

---->right, you've stated that before. but realize that there's more than

one source of naturally occurring vit. e and not everyone chooses the same

source you would choose for a variety of reasons.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

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Wheatgerm oil is listed on the 'no' list for gluten-free diets on

celiac.com... but that may just be because of the name, lol.

Anyway that's reason for me to avoid it.

I'll look into palm oil. Is tropical traditions your recommended

source? I've never seen it in a store. As for butter do you think it

should be eaten at the same time as the CLO to be effective in

that regard?

--- In , ChrisMasterjohn@a...

wrote:

> I'm not disputing anything said here but will point out that

vitamin D is an

> antioxidant, so the issue is not as bad as with fish oil.

>

> Also, wheat germ oil does not contain the full spectrum of

tocotrienols-- it

> contains miniscule quantities of alpha and beta tocotrienols,

and does not

> contain gamma and delta tocotrienols at all. On the other

hand, red palm oil is

> very, very high in all of the tocotrienols. Additionally, red palm

oil can be

> used as a food rather than a supplement, displacing other fats,

is safe to do

> light cooking with, because it is high in saturated fat and has

virtually no

> pufa, and contains about 65% of the total vitamin E that wheat

germ oil does.

> IOW, I don't see any reason at all to consume wheat germ oil.

>

> Let's not forget butter. It's vitamin E content is not high, but

there is

> some, but the saturated fats are necessary for protection of the

PUFA as much as

> the E is, and there are some studies that have found butter to

be necessary

> for effective utilization of the n-3s.

>

> Chris

>

> Chris

>

> In a message dated 9/21/03 7:36:50 AM Eastern Daylight

Time,

> s.fisher22@v... writes:

>

> > ---->yes.

> >

> > >>>>Do I need to worry about oxidation of the pufa & free

radicals, and

> > does taking it with E help that issue?

> >

> > ----->yes. lipid peroxidation typically depletes vitamin E

stores, so it's

> > good to keep them replenished. I always take vitamin E with

CLO, but i take

> > it in the form of wheatgerm oil from standard process. i think

either

> > " unique E " or wheatgerm oil are better than just d-alpha

tocopherol or mixed

> > tocopherols, because they contain the complete complex of

tocotrienols and

> > tocopherols that make up the whole vitamin E compound.

>

>

>

>

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On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:10:28 EDT

ChrisMasterjohn@... wrote:

>In a message dated 9/21/03 10:03:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

>karenr@... writes:

>

>> You can get a wine saver device to keep a vaccuum inside the bottle as you

>> use up the oil, but you'd have to transfer the CLO into a bottle that fits

>> it. The one I got is called Vacu-Vin.

>

>Radiant Life actually sells these specifically for the CLO. I don't have

>one, so I'm not sure if it requires any bottle transfer, but I'm guessing it

>doesn't since that is the purpose they sell it for.

>

>Chris

>

Hmmm...I'm big into wine and I haven't found the Vacu-vin to be very

good in this regard.

It Really Was The People's Car

http://tinyurl.com/mwbv

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At 01:48 PM 09/21/2003 -0700, you wrote:

>Hmmm...I'm big into wine and I haven't found the Vacu-vin to be very

>good in this regard.

In what way isn't it good? It does seem to create a vaccuum, although it's

a bit of a pain to use. I hope I don't have to buy yet another gadget for

my CLO! Such a high maintenance supplement, sheesh :-)

-

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In a message dated 9/21/03 1:49:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> ---->i knew you were going to say that. LOL. do you know of any evidence

> that vitamin D stores are depleted by ingesting PUFAs? so far, all the stuff

> i've read has found that PUFAs deplete vitamin E stores. vitamin E is part

> of the antioxidant network that the body uses to quench free radicals

> including those causing lipid peroxidation, so i'm wondering if that's

> because it's more efficient than using vitamin D, or if it's simply more

> studied? i'm going to be taking vary large doses of fish oil as per my ND's

> recommendation, and i will definitely be taking vitamin E along with it as a

> safeguard, besides, i would take E anyways. if i knew for a fact that some

> of the vitamin D in the fish oil neutralized oxidized PUFAs i might not take

> as much though, but i haven't read anything to that effect, although it

> sounds plausible in theory. if you have any evidence of it, please do post

> it.

Nope... that's one reason I said I wasn't going to dispute what you said

about vitamin E, because I've just " heard " this, and don't know any details in

how

it modifies the need for vitamin E.

>

>

>

> >>>Also, wheat germ oil does not contain the full spectrum of tocotrienols--

> it

> contains miniscule quantities of alpha and beta tocotrienols, and does not

> contain gamma and delta tocotrienols at all.

>

> ---->where did you get that info? according to standard process their wheat

> germ oil contains the complete vitamin E complex.

Enig's book. Wheat germ oil has the full spectrum of tocopherols, but

not tocotrienols. Any synthetic vitamin E supplements doesn't have any

tocotrienols at all, but wheat germ has next to none of the tocotrienols it does

have, and palm oil has like 7 times as much of all the tocotrienols.

>

>

> >>>>On the other hand, red palm oil is

> very, very high in all of the tocotrienols.

>

> ---->how much is " very, very high " ? all i have found is on the TT website

> that gives a parts per million graph, but i'm not sure how that compares to

> other sources in terms of ppm. wheat germ oils is 65% vitamin E by weight.

> i'd guess that's higher than 1200 ppm (for palm oil)?

145 mg per kg of alpha tocotrienol, 32 mg per kg of beta, 286 mg per kg of

gamma, and 69 per kg of delta.

Wheat germ oil, comparatively, has 26 mg/kg of alpha, and 18 mg/kg of beta,

with no gamma or delta tocotrienols, according to KYF.

> ---->where did you find this figure? one tiny perle of wheat germ oil

> contains almost 400 IUs vitamin E, so...would i only have to consume approx.

> 1.5 little drops of palm oil to get the same amount of vitamin E?

Wheat germ oil has a combined total of 2615 mg per kg of all vitamin E, and

palm oil has 1172 mg per kg of combined vitamin E. I'd hit the wrong number in

my calculator before, I thought it said 1700 for palm oil, so I was off--

it's 44%. But that's still close enough that wheat germ oil offers no unique

advantage in concentration.

Especially when you consider that the palm oil is clearly more advantageous

of a form of vitamin E, since it has a balanced spectrum, whereas wheat germ

oil is severely deficient in the entire tocotrienol spectrum.

also, i

> don't *want* to replace my other oils/fats which happen to be CO, lard,

> butter and animal fat! i'm eating these all for good reason, and i'm not

> interested in replacing them with palm oil at the moment.

You wouldn't have to replaced very much. You only need twice as much palm

oil/butter to replace the wheat germ oil, so a couple teaspoons would do the

trick. It is of course up to you. I'm not telling you what to eat. I'm

pointing out that wheat germ oil is a waste of money compared to palm oil.

i take such a tiny

> amount of wheat germ oil (1 perle per day - the size of a raisin) that it

> doesn't replace other oils in my diet.

then the palm oil you would need to replace it would be hardly more than the

size of two raisins. I find it hard to believe there's all that vitamin E in

that amount of wheat germ oil, but anyway, Enig's figures are all

measured in mg/kg, and she has figures in the same units for both oils, and palm

oil

has 44% of the vitamin E as wheat germ oil by mass.

if someone *wants* to replace other

> oils in their diet, then palm oil would probably be a better bet than wheat

> germ oil, though. another thing, i don't think i'm actually getting enough

> LA in my diet and i know this tiny raisin-sized drop of wheatgerm oil is not

> much, but maybe i can get a smidgeon of LA from it. in terms of PUFA though,

> it's quite insignifcant. volume-wise, i'm going to be taking about about 48x

> more CLO than wheatgerm oil, so that's obviously of *much* more concern in

> terms of PUFA intake. maybe i'll up the wheatgerm oil though so the ratio is

> close to 24x.

I hope this doesn't sound arrogant, but I have no choice as to question your

value since I don't have the bottle in front of me. I find it hard to believe

a 500 mg capsule or one of similar size of wheat germ oil can have such a

high vitamin E value for several reasons.

1) I read a Standard Process article a year ago that I believe you linked

to-- not SP itself but Clayton Better Health Center-- and they claimed that

their

SP vitamin E capsules had 8 IU per capsule. Are you sure the bottle lists

the amount as per capsule, and not as per some other amount?

2) According to <A

HREF= " http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/80734e/80734E05.htm " >ch02c</A> ,

alpha-tocopheral conversion factor from mg to IU is

1.49. I had trouble understanding how to use their other factors for other

vitamin E portions due to the way they were listed, but I got the impression

that

all the other portions of vitamin E have *less* of a conversion factor. So

if we use 1.49 for *all* of the spectrum with Enig's information, wheat

germ oil around 4 IU per gram.

Now maybe I'm misunderstanding the conversion factor, it was all I could

find.

But anyway, even if the conversion factor is misunderstood, it remains that

palm oil as 44% by mass the vitamin E of wheat germ oil. In addition it is

loaded with carotenes and doesn't have tons of pufa. Wheat germ oil is 60% LA.

Maybe you are deficient in LA, but I wouldn't simply assume it because you

don't eat grains and nuts, if you are. LA is in butter, meat, etc, even when

it's grass-fed. n-3s dominate grass, but it's only about 60% n-3s. Since you

should have plenty of DGLA and AA from other foods, it seems like anyone's LA

should be met with most foods.

Obviously I can't analyze *your* diet, but for the average person on this

list, or anyone else for that matter, it seems people are just unlikely to run

into an LA deficiency if they are eating grains, nuts, seeds, or animal

products, which covers most of the bases.

Palm oil is probably one of the or the best source of carotenes to, so if you

used a little bit every day you could save some big bucks on wheat germ oil

and the carotene supplement you're taking, no?

> >>>IOW, I don't see any reason at all to consume wheat germ oil.

>

> ---->right, you've stated that before. but realize that there's more than

> one source of naturally occurring vit. e and not everyone chooses the same

> source you would choose for a variety of reasons.

So what are those reasons? To get linoleic acid?

Besides, I've already made the point to *you* but somone else was asking a

question about what they should do to prevent lipid peroxidation with their fish

oil, and now they've benefited from two points of view and can buy whatever

the heck they want.

Chris

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In a message dated 9/21/03 2:27:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

biophile410@... writes:

> Wheatgerm oil is listed on the 'no' list for gluten-free diets on

> celiac.com... but that may just be because of the name, lol.

> Anyway that's reason for me to avoid it.

I don't know if wheat germ oil is supposed to have any contamination with

gluten residue or anything, but I guess that would certainly be a reason to

avoid

it. One thing to take into account is that humans have been consuming palm

oil for thousands of years, and wheat germ oil for...? That off the bat is not

a good argument against it, but in the grand perspective it doesn't thrill me

all together.

> I'll look into palm oil. Is tropical traditions your recommended

> source?

It's the only one I've used. I've heard Wilderness Family Naturals sells one

of comparable quality for a much lower price.

I've never seen it in a store. As for butter do you think it

> should be eaten at the same time as the CLO to be effective in

> that regard?

Price thought butter oil should be taken with CLO. Who knows if there are

certain fats or certain nutrients or both that must be taken in conjunction, but

if you don't take butter oil, taking the CLO with grass-fed butter would be a

great idea, providing you don't have any digestive problems (some people need

the CLO on an empty stomach.

Chris

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The only wine-saver I've seen in a store was one at the health food store I

go to sometimes, which, rather than creating a vacuum, filled it with several

non-oxygen gasses. Is this the same type of thing, or does yours actually suck

air out?

Chris

In a message dated 9/21/03 6:02:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

slethnobotanist@... writes:

> Yeah I know what you mean, LOL. I really think there is something to the

> old style way of fermenting the oil but I have yet to find any

> conclusive evidence.

>

> All I can tell you about the vacu-vin is that my wine only lasts for

> three days *at best* when sealed this way.

" To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are

to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and

servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. " --Theodore

Roosevelt

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On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:02:46 -0400

<karenr@...> wrote:

>At 01:48 PM 09/21/2003 -0700, you wrote:

>>Hmmm...I'm big into wine and I haven't found the Vacu-vin to be very

>>good in this regard.

>

>In what way isn't it good? It does seem to create a vaccuum, although it's

>a bit of a pain to use. I hope I don't have to buy yet another gadget for

>my CLO! Such a high maintenance supplement, sheesh :-)

>

>-

Yeah I know what you mean, LOL. I really think there is something to the

old style way of fermenting the oil but I have yet to find any

conclusive evidence.

All I can tell you about the vacu-vin is that my wine only lasts for

three days *at best* when sealed this way.

It Really Was The People's Car

http://tinyurl.com/mwbv

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-

Have you tried a FoodSaver or another powered vacuum sealer?

>All I can tell you about the vacu-vin is that my wine only lasts for

>three days *at best* when sealed this way.

-

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>> Wheatgerm oil is listed on the 'no' list for gluten-free diets on

>> celiac.com... but that may just be because of the name, lol.

>> Anyway that's reason for me to avoid it.

It's not just the name. They actually TEST stuff to see if it

has traces of gluten. Most oats harvested in the US, for instance,

have measureable amounts of wheat gluten. So does wheatgerm

oil. White vinegar, on the other hand, does NOT have any measureable

amount of gluten and is thought to be safe now, even though it is

sometimes made of wheat (more often though, it is made from

corn or wood. Wood????).

-- Heidi

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As for butter do you think it

> should be eaten at the same time as the CLO to be effective in

> that regard?

All supplemental PUFA should be consumed with sat fat.

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On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:13:56 -0400

Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

>-

>

>Have you tried a FoodSaver or another powered vacuum sealer?

>

>>All I can tell you about the vacu-vin is that my wine only lasts for

>>three days *at best* when sealed this way.

>

>

>

>-

>

Hi ,

I have never tried it with wine. It works great when I do the ocassional

juicing, extending the life of the juice up to 7 days or so.

I may try that instead of the expensive system I have been contemplating

buying which works very well and looks quite nice on the wine bar but is

a little spendy.

Micahel

The Discovery of a Warrior Queen

http://tinyurl.com/o25i

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Also look at Quantum Rx Cod Liver oil. This is the stuff that used to be

called 'Premier Cod Liver Oil' (same company), and is sold through

www.radiantlifeusa.com. It is very mild flavored.

Dr Mercola may be knowledgeable, but it seems to me that he overhypes the

stuff that he sells.

From: " Rundle " <Dpdg@...>

Reply-

Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:46:53 -0000

< >

Subject: Re: Cod Liver Oil

<<What is the best brand of cod liver oil? Freshness is very important to

me, but otherwise I have no idea how to select one. >>

Michele,

have a look at Dr. Mercola's -- Fish Oil / Cod Liver Oil Frequently Asked

Questions -- http://www.mercola.com/forms/faq/carlsons.htm

Dedy

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In a message dated 12/27/03 11:00:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,

implode7@... writes:

> Also look at Quantum Rx Cod Liver oil. This is the stuff that used to be

> called 'Premier Cod Liver Oil' (same company), and is sold through

> www.radiantlifeusa.com. It is very mild flavored.

>

> Dr Mercola may be knowledgeable, but it seems to me that he overhypes the

> stuff that he sells.

One thing to consider is how much n-3s you want. I personally do not want to

overdo the n-3s, so the brand Gene mentions is better for me, because it has

twice the vitamin to pufa ratio as Carlson's. For someone who wants a very

high intake of n-3s, Carlson's would be the best way to get it.

One thing to keep in mind, Jordan Rubin said in private conversation that he

lab tested some CLO's, and found Carlson's to only have 25% of the vitamin A

they claim is in it. He said he hopes it was an isolated incident, but

believes the molecular distillation probably depletes the vitamin A. The

vitamin D

was what was claimed.

Chris

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Thank you everyone! I decided to go with Carlson's, but if it doesn't work

out, I will definitely try the Quantum RX brand. Thanks for the info

about the A and n-3. Where do you find the actual nutrient content

information? DHA is very important to me, as I have been breastfeeding for 2

1/2 years with no dietary source of DHA, though I have usually had alot of

linolenic acid. I don't feel any difference now when I use it, I think I am

not converting it as well now due to malabsorption of certain nutrients. I

am worried about fish protein affecting my leaky gut, and do not want to

develop an allergy to it which would prevent me from eating it once healed,

so I decided to go with the oil. Hopefully it helps my brain a bit, LOL,

it's not what it used to be ... " mama brain " .

Take care,

Michele

>From: ChrisMasterjohn@...

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: Cod Liver Oil

>Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:40:28 EST

>

>In a message dated 12/27/03 11:00:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,

>implode7@... writes:

>

> > Also look at Quantum Rx Cod Liver oil. This is the stuff that used to be

> > called 'Premier Cod Liver Oil' (same company), and is sold through

> > www.radiantlifeusa.com. It is very mild flavored.

> >

> > Dr Mercola may be knowledgeable, but it seems to me that he overhypes

>the

> > stuff that he sells.

>

>One thing to consider is how much n-3s you want. I personally do not want

>to

>overdo the n-3s, so the brand Gene mentions is better for me, because it

>has

>twice the vitamin to pufa ratio as Carlson's. For someone who wants a very

>high intake of n-3s, Carlson's would be the best way to get it.

>

>One thing to keep in mind, Jordan Rubin said in private conversation that

>he

>lab tested some CLO's, and found Carlson's to only have 25% of the vitamin

>A

>they claim is in it. He said he hopes it was an isolated incident, but

>believes the molecular distillation probably depletes the vitamin A. The

>vitamin D

>was what was claimed.

>

>Chris

>

>

>

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In a message dated 12/28/03 1:00:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,

rawbabymama@... writes:

> Thanks for the info

> about the A and n-3. Where do you find the actual nutrient content

> information?

You should be able to find it on the bottle, or possibly the catalog you

ordered it from.

DHA is very important to me, as I have been breastfeeding for 2

> 1/2 years with no dietary source of DHA, though I have usually had alot of

> linolenic acid. I don't feel any difference now when I use it, I think I am

> not converting it as well now due to malabsorption of certain nutrients.

Mercola posted an article on a study done that found supplementing with alpha

linolenic acid from flax had no affect whatsoever on the levels of DHA in the

milk of breastfeeding mothers. I'd definitely begin using a source of the

preformed DHA.

Chris

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I second that opinion. If it's missing in your diet a preformed supplement

would be a good idea. I've been using Krill oil this pregnancy (and I've been

nursing for almost 13 years without a break) and have felt grwat using it.

Elainie

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>

>Mercola posted an article on a study done that found supplementing with

>alpha

>linolenic acid from flax had no affect whatsoever on the levels of DHA in

>the

>milk of breastfeeding mothers. I'd definitely begin using a source of the

>preformed DHA.

I'll check that one out. I wish I'd had that information 2 years ago! Thank

you>

Michele

_________________________________________________________________

Working moms: Find helpful tips here on managing kids, home, work — and

yourself. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/workingmom.armx

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Krill oil ... they make oil out of anything! :) Is it very high in DHA?

Thirteen years is a long time, congratulations. I think I want a year break

or so before conceiving the next one, because my body needs to replenish

stores. I'm receiving alot of pressure to stop now, but I want him to have

the benefit of self weaning. Thank you for the interesting option.

Have a Happy New Year

Michele

>From: zumicat@...

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: Cod Liver Oil

>Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 17:44:22 EST

>

>I second that opinion. If it's missing in your diet a preformed supplement

>would be a good idea. I've been using Krill oil this pregnancy (and I've

>been

>nursing for almost 13 years without a break) and have felt grwat using it.

>

>Elainie

>

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