Re: Question on Cause of CFS Genes

[Guest guest]

Hi, Tom.

Every person who's born is born with a set of gene variations, or

SNPs, or polymorphisms, or mutations, or whatever you want to call

them. We inherit them from our father and mother, who in turn

inherited theirs from their parents, and so on. Once in a great

while a new one is produced, but for the most part we inherit ones

that are already in the gene pool. We all have them. It's just a

question of what set of them we have. It depends on who are parents

were and which combination we got when we got half from one and half

from the other. In the entire human genome of about 35,000 genes,

so far over 10 million different gene variations have been

identified. Some of these make little or no difference in the

function of enzymes and other proteins that are coded by these

genes. Others make a little difference, some make a lot, and some

are extremely debilitating and cause people to be born having

seizures, or being paralyzed, or mentally retarded, or other serious

birth defects. Some cause people to die at a very young age.

In the case of enzymes, which are catalysts for biochemical

reactions, most of the gene variations cause the particular enzyme

to catalyze its reaction less well than normal, so it goes more

slowly than normal. However, some gene variations cause the

particular reactions to go faster than normal.

Rich

>

> Hi All.

>

> I have been looking for a statement in the CDC study on what

causes us

> to have genes that make us prone to being disabled by stress. The

CDC

> people seem to give vague, confusing (to me) statements when

discussing

> this. It seems that it would be easy to say that we are born with

> these genes, if that is what they believed.

>

> Instead we get a lot of discussion about allostatic load. As I

> understand it, you build up allostatic load by not dealing with

stress

> appropriately and then moving on. Instead, we don't move on, and

the

> aftereffects we continue to carry accumulate into an allostatic

load

> which damages our HPA axis and brain, and sets our genes to cause

us to

> respond increasingly poorly to stress in the future.

>

> I am not sure that this is what they are saying. I am trying to

figure

> out what they are saying. Can anyone clarify this? Thanks.

>

> Tom

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

If CFS is causing some genes to be altered,than what would happen if we had

parents who had their genes altered. So this might mean that we were born

with already altered genes.Also what would happen to the genes of children

we give birth to.I am thinking this might explain genetic part of CFS.Not

all PWC's might have it genetically but some may,who had ancestors with

altered genes.

What do you think?Thanks.

Nil

Re: Question on Cause of CFS Genes

> Hi, Tom.

>

> Every person who's born is born with a set of gene variations, or

> SNPs, or polymorphisms, or mutations, or whatever you want to call

> them. We inherit them from our father and mother, who in turn

> inherited theirs from their parents, and so on. Once in a great

>

[Guest guest]

I am confused too, by the Science itself, and by their statements.

Something I've meant to bring up...a statement I will never forget from the

early CFIDS days, lying in near- (excruciating) paralysis, brain like a

mudslide...

Some Scientists said that the disease was actually altering our DNA. I found

that pretty profound, and can say it was quite believable, based on the feeling.

(another one being, I felt like I was " disintegrating on a cell level " ).

ANyway, what does that mean...a disease altering the DNA? Do other ones do that?

Could that play into these genetic or gene expression findings?

Or anything else discussed here?

Is the whole human race's DNA being altered from environment/toxins?

Why was that said about CFS specifically? It was said for a reason, but I don't

know by whom or based on what. Are there any long term patients here that

remember this?

Or others who have feedback?

Katrina

>

> Hi All.

>

> I have been looking for a statement in the CDC study on what causes us

> to have genes that make us prone to being disabled by stress. The CDC

> people seem to give vague, confusing (to me) statements when discussing

> this. It seems that it would be easy to say that we are born with

> these genes, if that is what they believed.

>

> Instead we get a lot of discussion about allostatic load. As I

> understand it, you build up allostatic load by not dealing with stress

> appropriately and then moving on. Instead, we don't move on, and the

> aftereffects we continue to carry accumulate into an allostatic load

> which damages our HPA axis and brain, and sets our genes to cause us to

> respond increasingly poorly to stress in the future.

>

> I am not sure that this is what they are saying. I am trying to figure

> out what they are saying. Can anyone clarify this? Thanks.

>

> Tom

>

[Guest guest]

" kattemayo " wrote:

> Some Scientists said that the disease was actually altering our

DNA. I found that pretty profound, and can say it was quite

believable, based on the feeling. (another one being, I felt like I

was " disintegrating on a cell level " ).

>

> ANyway, what does that mean...a disease altering the DNA? Do other

ones do that? Could that play into these genetic or gene expression

findings?

> Or anything else discussed here?

>

> Is the whole human race's DNA being altered from

environment/toxins?

>

> Why was that said about CFS specifically? It was said for a

reason, but I don't know by whom or based on what. Are there any

long term patients here that remember this?

> Or others who have feedback?

>

> Katrina

That was Urnovitz who found transposed sequences in

Chromosome 22 in CFS and GWS: " Voyager RNA " .

http://www.immunesupport.com/Library/showarticle.cfm/ID/1178

He warned that the real culprit lies in the so called " Junk Genes " ,

whose importance has been overlooked.

Scientists called these genetic leftovers from infections " junk "

because they saw no purpose to them.

Perhaps the scientists were wrong.

Again!

-

[Guest guest]

Hi, Katrina.

It's important to distinguish two categories of cell types in regard

to changes in DNA.

These two categories are germ cells and somatic cells. The germ

cells are the ova in women and the sperm cells in men. The somatic

cells are all the other types of cells in the body.

If a change in DNA (a mutation) occurs in a germ cell and this germ

cell becomes part of a sperm-ova combination that successfully

survives and produces a new human, then every germ cell and somatic

cell in that new human will contain this change, and that human will

pass the change on to its offspring. This is a very rare event. By

far, most of the DNA changes that a person has have been inherited

down through many generations. The human genome is very well

protected by enzymes that repair most damage that occurs, and by the

fact that our DNA is double-stranded, so that if only one strand is

damaged, the other serves as a pattern to repair it.

Nevertheless, there are at least 10 million gene variations known in

the human genome of about 35,000 genes. So in the whole long

history of the human race, a large number of gene variations that

did not prevent people from having offspring have occurred, even

though they are rare events, and they exist in various combinations

in the population today.

The other category of cells is the somatic cells, of which there are

over 200 different types in the human body, such as blood cells,

nerve cells, muscle cells, skin cells, etc. In these cells, DNA

damage can occur also, but if it occurs, it does not affect all the

other cells in the body. It only affects the cells that descend

from that particular cell by cell division. Much of the damage that

occurs (such as by oxidizing free radicals, viruses, chemicals,

ionizing radiation, or just by thermal activation of atomic motion)

is repaired. Some is serious enough to cause the cell to die. Some

is of types that promote cancer, and after several mutations of

certain types in a single individual cell, the cell can become

cancerous and start reproducing out of control. The reason cancer

tends to occur most in older people is that there has been more time

for mutations to accumulate in a single cell.

In addition to actual mutations or changes in DNA, there is also a

category of things called " epigenetics. " The idea here is that the

DNA is not actually changed, but a pattern of expression of DNA can

actually be sort of fairly permanently " locked in " as a result of

changes in the apparatus that takes care of translating the code in

the DNA into the proteins made in the cell. It is possible to

change the epigenetics by appropriate nutrition. Methylation has a

lot to do with this.

CFS does not mutate the DNA in the germ cells more rapidly than its

usual very slow mutation rate, as far as I know, so it should not be

damaging the gene pool of the human race. (Of course, that would

only even be a possibility for those who had children after becoming

ill with CFS, but I don't think there is any evidence that it is

happening in those cases, either.) CFS could be increasing the rate

of damage to the DNA in the somatic cells, however, because we know

it involves a state of oxidative stress, we know it involves ongoing

viral infections, and we know it involves buildup of chemical

toxins. All of these are capable of damaging DNA. When the DNA

adduct marker is measured in urine organic acid tests or in detox

panels or oxidative stress panels in PWCs, it is often found to be

elevated, which indicates that the DNA is in fact under a higher

rate of attack by oxidizing free radicals than normal. There is a

small amount of data suggesting higher cancer rates in PWCs, but I

don't think the evidence for that is very solid.

What can be done about this? Well, glutathione protects against

oxidative stress, toxins, and viral infections. For those with low

glutathione, I think that getting it up would help a lot.

Rich

>

>

> I am confused too, by the Science itself, and by their statements.

>

> Something I've meant to bring up...a statement I will never forget

from the early CFIDS days, lying in near- (excruciating) paralysis,

brain like a mudslide...

>

> Some Scientists said that the disease was actually altering our

DNA. I found that pretty profound, and can say it was quite

believable, based on the feeling. (another one being, I felt like I

was " disintegrating on a cell level " ).

>

> ANyway, what does that mean...a disease altering the DNA? Do other

ones do that? Could that play into these genetic or gene expression

findings?

> Or anything else discussed here?

>

> Is the whole human race's DNA being altered from

environment/toxins?

>

> Why was that said about CFS specifically? It was said for a

reason, but I don't know by whom or based on what. Are there any

long term patients here that remember this?

> Or others who have feedback?

>

> Katrina

[Guest guest]

Nice clear explanation Rich. Hope you're working on that book .

I want to add: the torque of DNA is extremely important and

biophysicists experiment with that. That means, the pressure or

tightness of the strand. We have no clue yet as to what influences

that in the body's ordinary processes, and I wonder if emotions and

thoughts could as well as nutrition and bugs. Then there was some

interesting work, I was talking yesterday about, a physicist in

Calgary I spoke to a few years ago who was experimenting with changing

the arms on taxol, the anti cancer drug, which inhibits microtobules

if I recall correctly, somehow inhibits cell division, anyway he

ewanted to change the chemical arms so that it would be more effective

and less toxic and he noted that those arms are angstroms in size,

i.e. at the quantum level, leading him to be more open to hameroff and

penrose's theory that quantum effects operate in the brain and are

involved in consciousness.

Who knows, but my point is, there are all kinds of influences on DNA...

> >

> >

> > I am confused too, by the Science itself, and by their statements.

> >

> > Something I've meant to bring up...a statement I will never forget

> from the early CFIDS days, lying in near- (excruciating) paralysis,

> brain like a mudslide...

> >

> > Some Scientists said that the disease was actually altering our

> DNA. I found that pretty profound, and can say it was quite

> believable, based on the feeling. (another one being, I felt like I

> was " disintegrating on a cell level " ).

> >

> > ANyway, what does that mean...a disease altering the DNA? Do other

> ones do that? Could that play into these genetic or gene expression

> findings?

> > Or anything else discussed here?

> >

> > Is the whole human race's DNA being altered from

> environment/toxins?

> >

> > Why was that said about CFS specifically? It was said for a

> reason, but I don't know by whom or based on what. Are there any

> long term patients here that remember this?

> > Or others who have feedback?

> >

> > Katrina

>

[Guest guest]

About radiation accidents:http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/27/13551/0153

[Guest guest]

> Some Scientists said that the disease was actually altering our DNA.

I found that pretty profound, and can say it was quite believable,

based on the feeling. (another one being, I felt like I

was " disintegrating on a cell level " ).

>

Hi Katrina.

Here is a link to Dr. Urnovitz's article about gene shuffling. Dr

Cheney has referred to this theory but I can't remember what role he

thought it played in CFIDS.

http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/ID/1321/T/CFIDS_FM/

searchtext/Gene%20Shuffling

This link probably won't work because I don't know how to get limks to

wrap. Can someone explain how to do this? Thanks.

Tom

[Guest guest]

Hi Katrina.

Here is a brief statement about Gene shuffling by Dr. Cheney from the

DFW website:

The Gene Rearrangement is the fourth arrow on the diagram. Patients are

actually juggling their genetic code to find help. They're playing a

poker game in which they are shuffling their genetic deck to find a

hand capable of helping them. The winning hands are duplicated. The

losing hands are not. The problem is, patients have a lot more losing

hands than winning hands. But they compensate by only propagating the

winning hands. Is this genetic shuffling a net problem or a net

benefit? It could be either way. [An article on this gene rearrangement

appeared in our January 2000, and was reprinted in the Winter 2000

CFIDS Chronicle: 1-800-442-3437.

Tom

[Guest guest]

DO you folks know about HERVS? THey are viruses that insert themselves

into the genes and become heritable--infection, essentially, that

becomes inherited viruses. They can be activated by stresses or poor

methlyation, I assume. Matt Ridley does a good job of explaining them

and all kinds of other stuff in his book THE AGILE GENE

> > Some Scientists said that the disease was actually altering our DNA.

> I found that pretty profound, and can say it was quite believable,

> based on the feeling. (another one being, I felt like I

> was " disintegrating on a cell level " ).

> >

> Hi Katrina.

>

> Here is a link to Dr. Urnovitz's article about gene shuffling. Dr

> Cheney has referred to this theory but I can't remember what role he

> thought it played in CFIDS.

>

> http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/ID/1321/T/CFIDS_FM/

> searchtext/Gene%20Shuffling

>

> This link probably won't work because I don't know how to get limks to

> wrap. Can someone explain how to do this? Thanks.

>

> Tom

>