Re: Thyroid secondary and primary? Are All Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Fibromyalgia

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I have an appointment to leave for, so I can't write a long post, but

go to the naturalthyroidhormones board and post your question there.

They will tell you what's going on and what to do . Hold on, you are

going to be okay. I know all about the heart stuff. I am sooooooo used

to it now that when I get the occasional flip flop, I don't flip out

anymore. It is not fun though.

>

> Thanks " Dr. Jim "

>

> I had a rough patch with my Armour this week. I pretty much

> overdosed and I'm still recovering. I haven't had any thyroid since

> Tues and my heart is still racing, and I've been having my first

> (very scary) panic attacks ever (and I've pretty much always had

> anxiety) At 2:00 am I looked on the Armour website and had almost

> all of the symptoms of overdose. And almost none of the symptoms of

> Hyprthyroidism.

>

> I have Lyme as well as other issues. I am going to tell the Dr. on

> Thurs at FFC that I want to treat my Lyme, Chlamydia Pnemonia and

> other underlying issues and then look again at the Thyroid. You

> pretty much reaffirmed my thoughts.

>

>

> >

> > We find most folks with CFS have low free t3 (the potent one)

> and/or some of

> > 25 possible autoimmunity antibodies against the thyroid system.

> However, in

> > contrast to other diagnoses or just folks aging, we do NOT see

> homeruns with

> > this like we see with other treatments. I suspect that is because

> the

> > thyroid problem is secondary to the primary cause or causes of CFS.

> >

> > For example, biotoxins, lyme, mycotoxins, altered VIP/MSH and

> other

> > disorders can alter thyroid quickly. Supplements that place them

> in the

> > 75%-85% of a 30 y/o range help 15-20% but are not a cure.

> >

> > Treating the underlying causes seems to work better in the long

> run.

> >

> > Peace,

> >

> > Schaller, MD

> > www.personalconsult.com

> > www.usmoldphysician.com

> > www.suboxonemd.com

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

> > On Mar 17, 2006, at 8:28 PM, wrote:

> >

> >> http://www.hormoneandlongevitycenter.com/cfidsfibromyalgia/#8

> >>

> >> There is mounting evidence that hypothyroidism is present in the

> >> majority of and possibly all chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia

(CFS/FM)

> >> patients. The problem is that standard blood testing that consists of

> >> TSH, T4 and T3 does not detect it.

Actually it does. You just need to know how to interpret them and

have seen tests from some healthy people.

Unfortunately this lets essentially 100% of MD's and DO's out since

they are taught fraud based standards in school and few have the time

to go digging in their books and journals to see what real thyroid

tests on real people actually look like.

> > Thus, many CFS/FM patients are

> >> erroneously told over and over that their thyroid levels are fine.

Yes, this is a problem.

Correct interpretation:

TSH over 3.0 means you are hypothyroid. Period. Dot. Never any

exceptions. Ranges listed on lab reports are fraud based - if you look

at actual data in published papers no normal healthy people are over 3.0.

(the problem is the pathologists at the lab blindly applied a

statistical formula to calculate their reference range without knowing

enough statistics to realize they should do goodness of fit calculations)

If your free T4 AND TSH are too LOW, you are also hypo and it is

because your pituitary is on strike. There is a log-linear relation

here, but if free T4 is 0.8 (lower end of most lab ranges) TSH ought

to be over 2.0.

If your TSH is between 2 and 3 you MAY be hypo and need to rely on

signs and symptoms to decide, not lab work.

It is also important to check free T3 and its relation to free T4. In

chemically sensitive people (and people taking valproic acid) free T3

is a lot higher in its range than free T4. This can lead to having

the physical problems of being hypothyroid while the brain still works

OK. This happens in mercury or arsenic poisoning and is very common

if they are combined.

In lead and some other situations, free T3 is lower in its range than

free T4. This leads to the brain being very dysfunctional since it is

a lot more dependent on T3 than the body is. In children the presents

great risk of permanent developmental problems.

If you are borderline hypo also the body tries to keep things on an

even keel by jacking up the conversion of T4 to T3, so if you see free

T3 much higher in its range than free T4 without a clear reason (as

above) that means you are hypo.

A very common laboratory sign of hypothyroidism is high cholesterol.

Treating the thyroid fixes it right up, treating the cholesterol is

not very helpful and is guaranteed to increase fatigue a lot.

>

> We find most folks with CFS have low free t3 (the potent one)

Sometimes. I find TSH over 2.0 and often over 3.0 OR an abnormal

relation of free T4 and TSH most of the time in people with chronic

fatigue.

Most of them do in fact improve but do not get well on taking adequate

thyroid in proper form, which is a 1:4 mixture of T3 and T4.

If their pituitary is not working properly they generally need full

replacement, if it is they generally are OK with less than full

replacement.

A lot of them also have adrenal issues which may get worse if not

addressed once the thyroid is raised.

The ones with free T3 lower than free T4 generally have CFS, the ones

with free T3 much more than free T4 often are also chemically

sensitive or fibromyalgic.

A lot of the people with the lower free T3 get put through the

" 's Temperature Syndrome " protocol, which does usually make them

feel better for 6 months or a year. They invariably go back to where

they were after a while and have to repeat it. I generally think

they'd be better off just going on replacement therapy and not putting

their body and life through the thyroid yo yo effect.

Generally if you are finding either an abnormal relation of free T4 to

TSH, or greatly differing results for where free T3 and free T4 are in

their ranges, you will find heavy metal toxicity if you check.

You may find further useful discussion of this in my book Amalgam

Illness: Diagnosis and Treatment, on pages 116-117 and in the appendicies.

Andy

[Guest guest]

> > >

> > > We find most folks with CFS have low free t3 (the potent one)

> > and/or some of

> > > 25 possible autoimmunity antibodies against the thyroid

system.

> > However, in

> > > contrast to other diagnoses or just folks aging, we do NOT see

> > homeruns with

> > > this like we see with other treatments. I suspect that is

because

> > the

> > > thyroid problem is secondary to the primary cause or causes of

CFS.

> > >

> > > For example, biotoxins, lyme, mycotoxins, altered VIP/MSH and

> > other

> > > disorders can alter thyroid quickly. Supplements that place

them

> > in the

> > > 75%-85% of a 30 y/o range help 15-20% but are not a cure.

> > >

> > > Treating the underlying causes seems to work better in the

long

> > run.

> > >

> > > Peace,

> > >

> > > Schaller, MD

> > > www.personalconsult.com

> > > www.usmoldphysician.com

> > > www.suboxonemd.com

> > >

> > >

> >

>

I have found it to be a very good group and lots of good

info...naturalthyroidhormones...my only problem with the overall

picture with the group is that nearly everything that occurs

healthwise is always blamed on thyroid health, an easy thing to do

when you feel passionate about helping people but it is not always

the case in reality.It is so important to have an open mind

basically that way you can hopefully learn more. BW Dianne

[Guest guest]

Hi :

I wish it was an occassional " flip floP' I was in Tachycardia 100%

of the time and couldnt sleep for days due to my heard feeling like

it was going to jump out of my chest. My GP suggested I don't take

the med - she couldn't believe how high my heart rate was.

I also had major panic attacks even though I'm medicated with anti-

anxiety meds.

Thanks for your input - it's been a scary week for me.

> > >

> > > We find most folks with CFS have low free t3 (the potent one)

> > and/or some of

> > > 25 possible autoimmunity antibodies against the thyroid

system.

> > However, in

> > > contrast to other diagnoses or just folks aging, we do NOT see

> > homeruns with

> > > this like we see with other treatments. I suspect that is

because

> > the

> > > thyroid problem is secondary to the primary cause or causes of

CFS.

> > >

> > > For example, biotoxins, lyme, mycotoxins, altered VIP/MSH and

> > other

> > > disorders can alter thyroid quickly. Supplements that place

them

> > in the

> > > 75%-85% of a 30 y/o range help 15-20% but are not a cure.

> > >

> > > Treating the underlying causes seems to work better in the

long

> > run.

> > >

> > > Peace,

> > >

> > > Schaller, MD

> > > www.personalconsult.com

> > > www.usmoldphysician.com

> > > www.suboxonemd.com

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Andy,

I think it was you who said this, I am not sure though. If it was, I am

curious, where would a person with both fibro and CFS fit in? Isn't it common

to see these illnesses together?

Thanks,

Dawn

The ones with free T3 lower than free T4 generally have CFS, the ones> with

free T3 much more than free T4 often are also chemically> sensitive or

fibromyalgic.

It's the future, it's here, and it's free: Windows Live Mail beta

http://www2.imagine-msn.com/minisites/mail/Default.aspx?locale=en-us

[Guest guest]

HOw high was your heart rate? Trust me, I have had it all. 220's heart

rate at CHristmas. WHen I started meds, it was hoovering anywhere

between 95-120. It was a nightmare, but I backed down and retried the

dose. I did this the whole time (time consuming and painful, but it

worked, although it would have been much smoother sailing if I had had

adrenal support, but finding a doc who will treat that is difficult.

>

> Hi :

>

> I wish it was an occassional " flip floP' I was in Tachycardia 100%

> of the time and couldnt sleep for days due to my heard feeling like

> it was going to jump out of my chest. My GP suggested I don't take

> the med - she couldn't believe how high my heart rate was.

>

> I also had major panic attacks even though I'm medicated with anti-

> anxiety meds.

>

> Thanks for your input - it's been a scary week for me.

>

>

> > > >

> > > > We find most folks with CFS have low free t3 (the potent one)

> > > and/or some of

> > > > 25 possible autoimmunity antibodies against the thyroid

> system.

> > > However, in

> > > > contrast to other diagnoses or just folks aging, we do NOT see

> > > homeruns with

> > > > this like we see with other treatments. I suspect that is

> because

> > > the

> > > > thyroid problem is secondary to the primary cause or causes of

> CFS.

> > > >

> > > > For example, biotoxins, lyme, mycotoxins, altered VIP/MSH and

> > > other

> > > > disorders can alter thyroid quickly. Supplements that place

> them

> > > in the

> > > > 75%-85% of a 30 y/o range help 15-20% but are not a cure.

> > > >

> > > > Treating the underlying causes seems to work better in the

> long

> > > run.

> > > >

> > > > Peace,

> > > >

> > > > Schaller, MD

> > > > www.personalconsult.com

> > > > www.usmoldphysician.com

> > > > www.suboxonemd.com

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I met with my Psychiatrist today who knows a lot about Thyroid as

she has similar issues. She felt my dose was too high and that I

may want to take a small dose a couple times a week. (that's what

she does and she had the Hirshomitos (sp?). I showed her my test

results, as well.

I will figure this out. I will figure this out. I will figure this

out.

Anyway, I meet with my FFC doc on Thursday.

Thanks

Molly

> > > > >

> > > > > We find most folks with CFS have low free t3 (the potent

one)

> > > > and/or some of

> > > > > 25 possible autoimmunity antibodies against the thyroid

> > system.

> > > > However, in

> > > > > contrast to other diagnoses or just folks aging, we do NOT

see

> > > > homeruns with

> > > > > this like we see with other treatments. I suspect that is

> > because

> > > > the

> > > > > thyroid problem is secondary to the primary cause or

causes of

> > CFS.

> > > > >

> > > > > For example, biotoxins, lyme, mycotoxins, altered VIP/MSH

and

> > > > other

> > > > > disorders can alter thyroid quickly. Supplements that

place

> > them

> > > > in the

> > > > > 75%-85% of a 30 y/o range help 15-20% but are not a cure.

> > > > >

> > > > > Treating the underlying causes seems to work better in the

> > long

> > > > run.

> > > > >

> > > > > Peace,

> > > > >

> > > > > Schaller, MD

> > > > > www.personalconsult.com

> > > > > www.usmoldphysician.com

> > > > > www.suboxonemd.com

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Molly,

I was reading your post and I just wanted to offer a few words of encouragement.

I know it is so frustrating, but you are right, you will figure this out! I

appreciate your positive attitude, it encourages me to keep going in my battle

too.

Hugs,

Dawn

> I will figure this out. I will figure this out. I will figure this > out.> >

Anyway, I meet with my FFC doc on Thursday.> > Thanks> > Molly

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Mobile beta

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[Guest guest]

Thanks - just woke up with major night sweats and needed words of

encouragement! I think I'm reacting to the artimisinin I just

started two days ago - no real discomfort just the night sweats.

Thanks again, Dawn

Molly

>

> Hi Molly,

>

> I was reading your post and I just wanted to offer a few words of

encouragement. I know it is so frustrating, but you are right, you

will figure this out! I appreciate your positive attitude, it

encourages me to keep going in my battle too.

>

> Hugs,

> Dawn

>

> > I will figure this out. I will figure this out. I will figure

this > out.> > Anyway, I meet with my FFC doc on Thursday.> >

Thanks> > Molly

>

>

>

> Because e-mail on your cell phone should be easy: Try Windows

Live Mail for Mobile beta

> http://www2.imagine-msn.com/minisites/mail/Default.aspx?locale=en-

us

>

>