Re: Marcia/glutathione test....grim

March 14, 2006

This is terrible. It reminds me of how fragile I feel too--I thought I

was doing decently until that tooth extraction just crashed me for

months too.

YOu can get cobra for 18 months...not sure what the payments would be

but I would suggest doing that for now, even on a charge card, while

seeing if you can become part of a state program for insurance. Most

states have insurance coverage if you lose your job/insurance; at

lowered cost. They are HMO's but they do offer something.And for all

you know your ND might work with you instead of cutting you lose.

Your tale of DMPS is cautionary and why I am so careful, as I said,

one 50 mg pill of DMSA 10 years ago, in much healthier days, made my

kidneys hurt for months. Though is doing great on his IV's, I do

plan to get some SNP's tested in April in New Jersey and then put

together my methylation cycle and THEN start very low dose transdermal

DMPS. I can't afford any other approach as far as I'm concerned, and I

may not even be able to do that--I may just have to load up on

glutathione, selenium etc. I am not as a lymie going to wake myself up

every 4 hours do to oral DMSA and I'd probably have to start at just a

few milligrams...I am aware of the problems with half life and

redistribution, and folks who do the transdermal DO see changes.

-- In , " Marcia " <mgrahn@...> wrote:

>

> HI Rich and all,

>

> Well, life has just fallen apart for me I had to say. I was doing

well until January. Then I took a bad crash, and got a nasty cold/flu

along with bloody diah. etc. Oddly enough I was so 'down' that it took

me six weeks to figure out that the crash came after taking that DMPS

500mg oral dose for the Doctors Data Urine metals challenge test. I

have not had a crash like that in years. I had to sign off the list a

month and do nothing but nap when I could but I felt horrible. I was

just beginning to feel I was getting over that nasty cold (the bloody

diah and intestinal pain problems cleared in about a week) and I got

another cold/flu with sore throat, congestion, lower fever for 3 days

or so this time. I had my blood drawn on Feb 16 for my 2nd RBC

glutathione test from Immunosciences. I can't remember when the first

one was, sometime last summer tho. It was too low then at about 550

(ref range of 568-1048). The results came back two weeks ago but my

ND never even called to tell me they came in. No wonder, I'd been

getting IV Myers once a month followed by the IV glut after it. I've

never tolerated the whey prots well and since I'm following loosely

the DAN drs protocols (as I've learned them after the fact) I gave up

on that. I tried Lipo GSH and didn't tolerate that well either, did a

few glut. Suppositories, saw no diff from that. I have taken TMG for

well over a year, have been injecting methyl B12 for about 6 mo (altho

lower dose than Dan rec.) I've been taking folinic acid the last

couple months (folic acid years before that). I've taken a multi

mineral a long time and most mins tested normal last summer. I

stopped taking NAC and xtra Selenium based on worries about the merc

in my teeth. SO, after all this 'thinking' I'm building glutathione,

mine is now 436, over 100 points LOWER than it tested the last time.

Now this is getting scary.

>

> The worst news is friday husb came home from work early and said he

been fired. TOTALLY unexpected, so now no income and will lose our

health insurance. It wasn't warranted and more likely to do with his

age (60). He has diabetes which was under total control but the stress

of all this has made the numbers shoot up last few days. Will also

lose the dental ins. I was hoping to at least pay part of to finish my

bridge/damage and then get the merc out in the next couple yrs slowly.

>

> This whole thing is grim at this point. Any suggestions rich? I

have gotten some molybednum but havent' started it yet. My liver

enzymes are always too high and have to be so careful what I take, I

did get some bupleumum combo liver stuff that I hope will help.

Apparently that one dose of DMPS really set me back and maybe was

responsible for the further glutathione drop even. At this point

there will be no more money/ins. for IV's and not sure much of

anything. Altho I did manage to get some NT Factor, not sure if that

will help me at this point. I'm scrambling with too many things to try

and do damage control to our lives right now. Husb was with this

company 7 and 1/2 yrs and planned to be till retirement in 5 and 1/2

more.

>

> Marcia

>

March 14, 2006

Hi Marcia, I am so sorry to hear about this grim turn of events in

your life. I hope you can regain some lost ground by focusing on

inexpensive treatments that promoate detoxification. You might

cautiously try some Epsom salts baths, if you aren't doing them

already. They are supposed to be detoxing and to provide some

magnesium and sulphate. You can also make a magnesium sulfate cream.

There are recipes on the Internet. Some companies sell vitamin and

mineral transdermal creams, and I guess you could probably make those

at home too. Transdermal may not be as good as IV, but probably

better than oral. For me, diet seems to be one of the most effective

treatments.

I've had some pretty grim developments too in recent weeks. I learned

I have cardiac ischemia with one small dead area. Plus, my arythmias

and tachychardia are steadily worsening. My doctor thinks it is early

enough to be reversible. But she doesn't know about Cheney's

theories, so she may not have a very good understanding of what's

going on with my heart.

Wishing you better health and future prosperity,

Vickie

>

> HI Rich and all,

>

> Well, life has just fallen apart for me I had to say. I was doing

>well until January. Then I took a bad crash, and got a nasty

>cold/flu along with bloody diah. etc. Oddly enough I was so 'down'

>that it took me six weeks to figure out that the crash came after

>taking that DMPS 500mg oral dose for the Doctors Data Urine metals

>challenge test. I have not had a crash like that in years. I had to

>sign off the list a month and do nothing but nap when I could but I

>felt horrible. I was just beginning to feel I was getting over that

>nasty cold (the bloody diah and intestinal pain problems cleared in

>about a week) and I got another cold/flu with sore throat,

>congestion, lower fever for 3 days or so this time. I had my blood

>drawn on Feb 16 for my 2nd RBC glutathione test from Immunosciences.

>I can't remember when the first one was, sometime last summer tho.

March 14, 2006

Hi, Marcia.

I'm sorry that this has happened to you. I've thought for a while now that your

case and mine are very similar.

I happened not to have had a bad reaction to an IV EDT/DMPS challenge for heavy

metals test through Doctor's Data, similar to the test you did.

I had been building glutathione in my liver and body well before that through

use of the nondenatured whey, RenewPro.

I wonder if this is what made my getting IV with the DMPS since then so easy.

It's my understanding that IV glutathione only has a 1.6 minute half life and

gets taken up mostly by the kidneys.

I also don't have the whey sensitivity you have. I think this is one of the

areas where the genomic panels for detox come in handy.

Besides the molybdenum issue you're considering, you may have missed, this past

month when you've been off the list, the whole issue with the CBC gene variant

which seems to be linked with those who have sulfur sensitities, whey protein

included.

There was some interesting talk about how to work around this if you have this

problem so you may want to check the archives for the two to three weeks. This

may give you a real tangible insight about what to do about this problem.

I know it feels grim, a view that comes and goes in me with each turn or non

turn of events, on this path of experimentation. Though its quite unpreferred,

it seems to be part of the game and takes smart tough people like you and others

on this list to able to deal with it.

Hang in there.

" Marcia " <mgrahn@...> wrote:

March 14, 2006

That is rough! I wish I could help you out . All I can offer you is my best

wishes during these difficult times. Sometimes when it rains it pours.

Yours truly, Cort.

Marcia <mgrahn@...> wrote:

HI Rich and all,

Well, life has just fallen apart for me I had to say. I was doing well until

January. Then I took a bad crash, and got a nasty cold/flu along with bloody

diah. etc. Oddly enough I was so 'down' that it took me six weeks to figure out

that the crash came after taking that DMPS 500mg oral dose for the Doctors Data

Urine metals challenge test. I have not had a crash like that in years. I had

to sign off the list a month and do nothing but nap when I could but I felt

horrible. I was just beginning to feel I was getting over that nasty cold (the

bloody diah and intestinal pain problems cleared in about a week) and I got

another cold/flu with sore throat, congestion, lower fever for 3 days or so this

time. I had my blood drawn on Feb 16 for my 2nd RBC glutathione test from

Immunosciences. I can't remember when the first one was, sometime last summer

tho. It was too low then at about 550 (ref range of 568-1048). The results

came back two weeks ago but my ND never even called to tell

me they came in. No wonder, I'd been getting IV Myers once a month followed by

the IV glut after it. I've never tolerated the whey prots well and since I'm

following loosely the DAN drs protocols (as I've learned them after the fact) I

gave up on that. I tried Lipo GSH and didn't tolerate that well either, did a

few glut. Suppositories, saw no diff from that. I have taken TMG for well over

a year, have been injecting methyl B12 for about 6 mo (altho lower dose than Dan

rec.) I've been taking folinic acid the last couple months (folic acid years

before that). I've taken a multi mineral a long time and most mins tested normal

last summer. I stopped taking NAC and xtra Selenium based on worries about the

merc in my teeth. SO, after all this 'thinking' I'm building glutathione, mine

is now 436, over 100 points LOWER than it tested the last time. Now this is

getting scary.

The worst news is friday husb came home from work early and said he been fired.

TOTALLY unexpected, so now no income and will lose our health insurance. It

wasn't warranted and more likely to do with his age (60). He has diabetes which

was under total control but the stress of all this has made the numbers shoot up

last few days. Will also lose the dental ins. I was hoping to at least pay part

of to finish my bridge/damage and then get the merc out in the next couple yrs

slowly.

This whole thing is grim at this point. Any suggestions rich? I have gotten

some molybednum but havent' started it yet. My liver enzymes are always too high

and have to be so careful what I take, I did get some bupleumum combo liver

stuff that I hope will help. Apparently that one dose of DMPS really set me

back and maybe was responsible for the further glutathione drop even. At this

point there will be no more money/ins. for IV's and not sure much of anything.

Altho I did manage to get some NT Factor, not sure if that will help me at this

point. I'm scrambling with too many things to try and do damage control to our

lives right now. Husb was with this company 7 and 1/2 yrs and planned to be till

retirement in 5 and 1/2 more.

Marcia

March 14, 2006

Hi, Marcia.

Well, this is just devastating! I can only imagine what you and your

husband are going through right now. When it rains, it pours.

This hit me pretty hard, but I'm sure not as hard as it has been

hitting you. But after saying a prayer or two, reviewing your

messages over the past few months, consulting the autism book and

their detox consensus position paper, thinking about it all (and

having a bottle of Pete's Wicked Ale), I'm now ready to face trying

to respond.

The first thing is to try to figure out why the glutathione went

down. I think you are correct in thinking this was due to the

DMPS. I suspect that your glutathione level had actually not come

up very much prior to doing the DMPS challenge, in spite of the

things you had been doing to try to bring it up. I know that you

intended to measure it before doing the DMPS challenge, but the ND's

office wasn't able to get that together, so we don't know for sure

what your glutathione status actually was prior to the DMPS

challenge. It's known that when DMPS is taken orally, it isn't all

absorbed, so some stays in the gut and feeds the bugs. It's also

known that DMPS can bind some glutathione and carry it out. I

suspect that those are the things that explain the experience you

had.

So, what can we learn from this experience? Well, I would say that

one lesson is that glutathione has to be higher than it was before

using DMPS (and probably DMSA as well). I think another lesson is

that glutathione really has to be measured in order to be sure that

it really is higher, even though measures have been taken to raise

it.

The next question is, if the glutathione level didn't go up, why

didn't it, considering the things you were taking to raise it?

Well, I'm not sure. My best guess is that whatever blockage you

have in your sulfur metabolism must not have been cleared by the

things you were taking, and the supplemental glutathione you were

getting as Lipoceutical Glutathione must not have been sufficient.

So where to from here? Well, I can think of a couple of options,

both of which have their pros and cons:

1. Run Amy Yasko's Economy Basic panel to find out what your actual

SNPs are, so that they can be specifically targeted with appropriate

supplements. The downside here is the cost, which is $350, and I

know that money has to be very tight right now, given what happened

to your husband's job.

2. Start at the bottom (most oxidized end) of your sulfur

metabolism, and slowly fix it and fill it with substrates. The

downside is that without the benefit of testing, this would have to

be done by the seat of your pants, though your ION test results

would at least give you clues about where you are starting. It

would also cost some money, but probably not as much as option 1,

and the cost would be spread out over time, if that helps.

The first things would be to build sulfate and taurine. Sulfate can

be built by using oral Epsom salts, Epsom salts baths, and

glucosamine sulfate and chondroitin sulfate, if you can tolerate

them. Taurine can be built by taking oral taurine. These things

are relatively cheap, at least the taurine and the Epsom salts are,

and maybe they would be enough.

The next thing is to give the sulfoxidation step enough molybdenum

to make the molydopterin it needs. Taking oral molybdenum should do

that, and you already have some of that.

The next thing is to put in something like MSM to see if the

sulfoxidation is working O.K. As I recall, you didn't tolerate that

so well, though. The idea here is to build the molybdopterin and

increase the capacity of sulfoxidation. Actually, I see in one of

your posts that you have been able to tolerate NAC well, so if you

can take that, it would be even better than MSM, I think, because

the metabolism of that is better understood. Ordinarily I wouldn't

suggest that, because it can move mercury into the brain, but you

already know that it doesn't cause you any problems.

The next thing is to add B6, P5P and magnesium, to get the

transsulfuration pathway working well.

Perhaps the next thing would be to add TMG, methyl B12, and folinic

acid to help the methylation cycle to get going. Mercury can block

the enzyme methionine synthase, but the enzyme that uses TMG can

bypass this blockage, so I think that using a lot of that would be a

good idea, and it's fairly cheap. If you can get your copy of the

Pangborn and Baker book back from your ND, you can get some guidance

about what dosages to use for these things, and I would suggest

going on the high side with the TMG. You mentioned that you have

been taking that for a long time and that you have tolerated it well.

Then I would suggest trying some RenewPro, starting at a low dosage

and working up. If that's too expensive or intolerable, you could

try ordinary cheaper whey protein. This will supply methionine and

cysteine (or cystine, in the case of the cheaper stuff), and if you

can tolerate it, this should start building glutathione, and you can

increase the dose gradually, as you can tolerate it.

I think this process will take time (I'm not sure how much time),

and probably the only way to know for sure how it's going will be to

measure the red blood cell glutathione after a while, which I think

still costs about $85. The presence of mercury and other heavy

metals in your body may slow the building of glutathione, but I do

think that building glutathione should come first, before trying to

get the heavy metals out, especially based on your experience with

the DMPS challenge.

Well, those are the best bets, I think.

Another thing I want to mention is that now that I have learned some

more from Amy Yasko's book and DVDs about the linkage between the

methylation cycle, the folate metabolism, the biopterin cycle, the

synthesis of the neurotransmitters, the nitric oxygen synthase

reaction and the urea cycle, I think I am in a better position to

understand the things in your ION test that didn't seem to make

sense to me before. In short, I do think that problems in your

sulfur metabolism do explain all those " funny " results. And that

makes me more sure that fixing the sulfur metabolism and getting out

the heavy metals ultimately have to be the things that will help

you. The exact details of doing that and the time it will take I

just don't have enough experience yet to say for sure. But I do

think that the evidence supports trying to accomplish these goals.

I hope this is helpful Marcia. And I will pray that your husband

will be able to find another job.

Rich

>

> HI Rich and all,

>

> Well, life has just fallen apart for me I had to say. I was doing

well until January. Then I took a bad crash, and got a nasty

cold/flu along with bloody diah. etc. Oddly enough I was so 'down'

that it took me six weeks to figure out that the crash came after

taking that DMPS 500mg oral dose for the Doctors Data Urine metals

challenge test. I have not had a crash like that in years. I had to

sign off the list a month and do nothing but nap when I could but I

felt horrible. I was just beginning to feel I was getting over that

nasty cold (the bloody diah and intestinal pain problems cleared in

about a week) and I got another cold/flu with sore throat,

congestion, lower fever for 3 days or so this time. I had my blood

drawn on Feb 16 for my 2nd RBC glutathione test from Immunosciences.

I can't remember when the first one was, sometime last summer tho.

It was too low then at about 550 (ref range of 568-1048). The

results came back two weeks ago but my ND never even called to tell

me they came in. No wonder, I'd been getting IV Myers once a month

followed by the IV glut after it. I've never tolerated the whey

prots well and since I'm following loosely the DAN drs protocols (as

I've learned them after the fact) I gave up on that. I tried Lipo

GSH and didn't tolerate that well either, did a few glut.

Suppositories, saw no diff from that. I have taken TMG for well

over a year, have been injecting methyl B12 for about 6 mo (altho

lower dose than Dan rec.) I've been taking folinic acid the last

couple months (folic acid years before that). I've taken a multi

mineral a long time and most mins tested normal last summer. I

stopped taking NAC and xtra Selenium based on worries about the merc

in my teeth. SO, after all this 'thinking' I'm building glutathione,

mine is now 436, over 100 points LOWER than it tested the last

time. Now this is getting scary.

>

> The worst news is friday husb came home from work early and said

he been fired. TOTALLY unexpected, so now no income and will lose

our health insurance. It wasn't warranted and more likely to do with

his age (60). He has diabetes which was under total control but the

stress of all this has made the numbers shoot up last few days. Will

also lose the dental ins. I was hoping to at least pay part of to

finish my bridge/damage and then get the merc out in the next couple

yrs slowly.