RE: Circumcision, Abstinence & Behaviour Change in Africa

September 20, 2006

Geoffrey,

I m not surprised by th way you urgue your case on the best way to prevent

HIV infection if all you are trying to do is to totally dislodge the place

of ABC the way I know it and have used the method. By this kind of bias you

really put off network members like my sef not to waste time debating on

what is already concluded on. My only comment is that as long as you present

a condom like that, it will never gain ground even if it was the best and

the only mean to prevent all further infections in Africa.

Since you have access to people like my self, there is even no need to hold

this debate but to go into the field and advocate for what we believe works

for the people we work with. That's it! The western way of looking at life

and problems in Africa can not and will never be divorced from the increased

problems and the many mistakes that have occured in Africa. Itwill probably

might happen when I will no longer be on this planet. The imposition

attitude is still strong! The exploitative tendencies is unbelievable! name

it.

Evatt

>From: " Geoffrey Heaviside " <gheaviside@...>

>Reply-AIDS treatments

>AIDS treatments

>Subject: Circumcision, Abstinence & Behaviour Change in Africa

>Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 22:05:50 +1000

>

>Dear and other readers,

>

>Here it is nearly the end of 2006 and we are still discussing Abstinence

>and

>Morality whilst so many Africans continue to get infected.

>Now I am even seeing circumcision being mis-described as a prevention tool

>when it is nothing more nor less that a risk factor in the transmission

>education modalities.

>Circumcision doesn’t prevent HIV transmission but if you are an

>uncircumsized male and you dare to have unprotected sex you have a higher

>risk of infection than someone who is circumcised.

>If sex is more mental than physical then HIV would not be a problem because

>HIV cannot yet be transmitted mentally.

>It is easy for those who are or can look forward to being happily married

>to

>reconcile morality issues but that option is not open or experiential to

>all

>Africans yet.

>Ask any of the 400 young women I spoke to who believed in abstinence yet

>became infected either by an infected husband, a wife inheritance or being

>forced to have sex against their will, what would have helped them more.

>

>There are some facts about HIV that everyone should know:

>

>One is that the more partners you have the more risks you take in being

>exposed,

>The other is that condoms provide significant protection against both

>unintended pregnancy and HIV infection and this protection level improves

>if

>the following conditions exist:-

>

>Alternatives to penetration in erotic behaviour.

>Good quality and easily accessible and affordable condoms are available

>Proper lubrication is easily accessible, affordable and appropriately used

>Skills in the proper use of condoms are known and understood by all post

>pubescent citizens. (even the married ones who don’t want any more

>children)

>

>These facts are universal and it is only aspects of religion and cultural

>practices that impact on their effectiveness. It has nothing to do with

>modernization although I want to indicate later in this essay that

>education

>and gender rights will have a great influence on the epidemic in the same

>way that it has done in the west where access to education is much higher

>than the MDG’s for Africa in particular. (MDG = Millenium Development

>Goals)

>

>It is hard to believe that three years into the UN Literacy Decade

>2003-2012

>more than 800 million adults are still illiterate and 94 countries, many of

>them African, have failed to ensure gender parity in Primary Education by

>2005.

>

>MDG’s are inter-related and progress towards one goal contributes to

>progress towards one or more of the others. Research has clearly shown that

>investments in education that are affordable have flow on effects in

>improving health and nutrition, particularly for women, contributing to

>family planning, increasing economic opportunities and earning capacities,

>empowering women, encouraging community participation in decision making

>and

>even improving the environment.

>“If children are young shoots, growing up in the soil of their family,

>social and cultural background, then education is the water and the

>sunlight

>that provides growth towards the child’s full potential”. (Thurley, B.)

>

>Education is often described as the foundation of not just an individual’s,

>but a whole society’s, economic productiveness. It is the key vehicle for

>the transmission of culture and the replication of social norms and values,

>as well as being regarded as a fundamental human right.

>

>There probably aren’t any investments in education that bring

>proportionately more benefit than investing in education of girls and

>women.

>Educated girls are more likely to marry later, have fewer children, and

>space the births further apart, access medical care for themselves and

>their

>children – leading to improved maternal health and healthier, better

>nourished children – educate their own children and have an improved

>earning

>capacity and to quote , “MDG’s are doomed unless we make

>gender

>inequality history.”

>

>I want to finish this contribution to the debate about what we do about HIV

>as it emanated from the ICASA 2005 Conference.

>

>Collectively we revised the ABC of HIV to include D as follows for Africa

>in

>particular:-

>

>A is Adherence

>

>B is Becoming Knowledgeable

>

>C was Maintaining a Community Focus (which should of course include the

>religious

> community)

>

>D Do Not Squander Scarce Resources.

>

>Finally let me say why the Karimojong people of Uganda have low rates of

>HIV

>infection. It is primarily because they have not yet been exposed to the

>Virus.

>The Aboriginal people of remote Australia also had low rates of infection

>once upon a time until the Virus came into their Community and now the

>incidence is a serious concern. Nothing to do with modernity or culture.

>The

>best thing that could happen to the Karimojong people of Uganda is for

>their

>Tribal Elders to become very well informed because it is unbelievable how

>many women became infected in this world who were virgins right to their

>marriages and if they had been better informed they could have determined a

>regime for unprotected sexual encounters with their husbands whose HIV

>status could have been known before their honeymoons.

>

>This whole epidemic is only going to come under control when infected

>people, (including increasing numbers of clergy and teachers in Africa in

>particular, lest people think that morality is only a problem with the poor

>and uneducated) are cared for adequately, and the uninfected know enough to

>avoid infection and this knowledge has to be imparted as soon after puberty

>as practicable and include the diverse representation of sexualities.

>

>I have no quarrel with abstinence as a super prevention strategy provided

>it

>includes a ban on all oral stimulation such as kissing and provided that

>there is a general tribal understanding that when girls and boys say no

>they

>mean no and sexual abuse ceases.

>

>One thing that we can all agree on is that behaviour change is crucial,

>, and anyone who has read this far, I am more than happy to continue

>discussions about behaviour change at both levels, infected and uninfected.

>There is much to share and some foolproof sexual health and safety messages

>that need to be understood but of even more crucial importance is the new

>BIG C above, namely community focus.

>

>The one changed feature in global HIV politics is that Africa is no longer

>the highest prevalence country but for the suffering and dying infected

>Africans that is no comfort, and a solution is possible but it has to be

>everyone’s responsibility.

>

>Geoffrey

>

>September 2006

>

>geoflowd@...

>

>Geoff Heaviside

>HIV/AIDS Policy Consultant

>Convenor - Brimbank Community Initiatives Inc

>Secretary - International Centre for Health Equity Inc

>Member - Australasian Society for HIV Medicine Inc

>Member - ILGA Brussels

>P.O. Box 2400 s Lakes 3038

>. Australia.

>Ph: 0418 328 278

>Ph/Fax : (61 3) 9449 1856

>

>or in India

>Mr Geoff Heaviside

>

>Mobile : (91) 9840 097 178

> (SMS when not in India)

>

> " The new century is not going to be new at all if we offer only charity,

>that palliative to satisfy the conscience and keep the same old system of

>haves and have-nots quietly contained. "

>

>Kenya aids is a forum on hiv/aids you can join at

>http://www./group/

>

>You can also join another Kenyan community based group that is open to all.

>This forum has ngos and members that are networking on how to help

>communities in Kenya and the url is

>Kenyainternationalgroup

>

>You can be subscribed directly by contacting the moderator chifu at

>chifu2222@...

>

>Thank you for being a member.

>

>Chifu

>

September 20, 2006

Geoffrey,

I m not surprised by th way you urgue your case on the best way to prevent

HIV infection if all you are trying to do is to totally dislodge the place

of ABC the way I know it and have used the method. By this kind of bias you

really put off network members like my sef not to waste time debating on

what is already concluded on. My only comment is that as long as you present

a condom like that, it will never gain ground even if it was the best and

the only mean to prevent all further infections in Africa.

Since you have access to people like my self, there is even no need to hold

this debate but to go into the field and advocate for what we believe works

for the people we work with. That's it! The western way of looking at life

and problems in Africa can not and will never be divorced from the increased

problems and the many mistakes that have occured in Africa. Itwill probably

might happen when I will no longer be on this planet. The imposition

attitude is still strong! The exploitative tendencies is unbelievable! name

it.

Evatt

>From: " Geoffrey Heaviside " <gheaviside@...>

>Reply-AIDS treatments

>AIDS treatments

>Subject: Circumcision, Abstinence & Behaviour Change in Africa

>Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 22:05:50 +1000

>

>Dear and other readers,

>

>Here it is nearly the end of 2006 and we are still discussing Abstinence

>and

>Morality whilst so many Africans continue to get infected.

>Now I am even seeing circumcision being mis-described as a prevention tool

>when it is nothing more nor less that a risk factor in the transmission

>education modalities.

>Circumcision doesn’t prevent HIV transmission but if you are an

>uncircumsized male and you dare to have unprotected sex you have a higher

>risk of infection than someone who is circumcised.

>If sex is more mental than physical then HIV would not be a problem because

>HIV cannot yet be transmitted mentally.

>It is easy for those who are or can look forward to being happily married

>to

>reconcile morality issues but that option is not open or experiential to

>all

>Africans yet.

>Ask any of the 400 young women I spoke to who believed in abstinence yet

>became infected either by an infected husband, a wife inheritance or being

>forced to have sex against their will, what would have helped them more.

>

>There are some facts about HIV that everyone should know:

>

>One is that the more partners you have the more risks you take in being

>exposed,

>The other is that condoms provide significant protection against both

>unintended pregnancy and HIV infection and this protection level improves

>if

>the following conditions exist:-

>

>Alternatives to penetration in erotic behaviour.

>Good quality and easily accessible and affordable condoms are available

>Proper lubrication is easily accessible, affordable and appropriately used

>Skills in the proper use of condoms are known and understood by all post

>pubescent citizens. (even the married ones who don’t want any more

>children)

>

>These facts are universal and it is only aspects of religion and cultural

>practices that impact on their effectiveness. It has nothing to do with

>modernization although I want to indicate later in this essay that

>education

>and gender rights will have a great influence on the epidemic in the same

>way that it has done in the west where access to education is much higher

>than the MDG’s for Africa in particular. (MDG = Millenium Development

>Goals)

>

>It is hard to believe that three years into the UN Literacy Decade

>2003-2012

>more than 800 million adults are still illiterate and 94 countries, many of

>them African, have failed to ensure gender parity in Primary Education by

>2005.

>

>MDG’s are inter-related and progress towards one goal contributes to

>progress towards one or more of the others. Research has clearly shown that

>investments in education that are affordable have flow on effects in

>improving health and nutrition, particularly for women, contributing to

>family planning, increasing economic opportunities and earning capacities,

>empowering women, encouraging community participation in decision making

>and

>even improving the environment.

>“If children are young shoots, growing up in the soil of their family,

>social and cultural background, then education is the water and the

>sunlight

>that provides growth towards the child’s full potential”. (Thurley, B.)

>

>Education is often described as the foundation of not just an individual’s,

>but a whole society’s, economic productiveness. It is the key vehicle for

>the transmission of culture and the replication of social norms and values,

>as well as being regarded as a fundamental human right.

>

>There probably aren’t any investments in education that bring

>proportionately more benefit than investing in education of girls and

>women.

>Educated girls are more likely to marry later, have fewer children, and

>space the births further apart, access medical care for themselves and

>their

>children – leading to improved maternal health and healthier, better

>nourished children – educate their own children and have an improved

>earning

>capacity and to quote , “MDG’s are doomed unless we make

>gender

>inequality history.”

>

>I want to finish this contribution to the debate about what we do about HIV

>as it emanated from the ICASA 2005 Conference.

>

>Collectively we revised the ABC of HIV to include D as follows for Africa

>in

>particular:-

>

>A is Adherence

>

>B is Becoming Knowledgeable

>

>C was Maintaining a Community Focus (which should of course include the

>religious

> community)

>

>D Do Not Squander Scarce Resources.

>

>Finally let me say why the Karimojong people of Uganda have low rates of

>HIV

>infection. It is primarily because they have not yet been exposed to the

>Virus.

>The Aboriginal people of remote Australia also had low rates of infection

>once upon a time until the Virus came into their Community and now the

>incidence is a serious concern. Nothing to do with modernity or culture.

>The

>best thing that could happen to the Karimojong people of Uganda is for

>their

>Tribal Elders to become very well informed because it is unbelievable how

>many women became infected in this world who were virgins right to their

>marriages and if they had been better informed they could have determined a

>regime for unprotected sexual encounters with their husbands whose HIV

>status could have been known before their honeymoons.

>

>This whole epidemic is only going to come under control when infected

>people, (including increasing numbers of clergy and teachers in Africa in

>particular, lest people think that morality is only a problem with the poor

>and uneducated) are cared for adequately, and the uninfected know enough to

>avoid infection and this knowledge has to be imparted as soon after puberty

>as practicable and include the diverse representation of sexualities.

>

>I have no quarrel with abstinence as a super prevention strategy provided

>it

>includes a ban on all oral stimulation such as kissing and provided that

>there is a general tribal understanding that when girls and boys say no

>they

>mean no and sexual abuse ceases.

>

>One thing that we can all agree on is that behaviour change is crucial,

>, and anyone who has read this far, I am more than happy to continue

>discussions about behaviour change at both levels, infected and uninfected.

>There is much to share and some foolproof sexual health and safety messages

>that need to be understood but of even more crucial importance is the new

>BIG C above, namely community focus.

>

>The one changed feature in global HIV politics is that Africa is no longer

>the highest prevalence country but for the suffering and dying infected

>Africans that is no comfort, and a solution is possible but it has to be

>everyone’s responsibility.

>

>Geoffrey

>

>September 2006

>

>geoflowd@...

>

>Geoff Heaviside

>HIV/AIDS Policy Consultant

>Convenor - Brimbank Community Initiatives Inc

>Secretary - International Centre for Health Equity Inc

>Member - Australasian Society for HIV Medicine Inc

>Member - ILGA Brussels

>P.O. Box 2400 s Lakes 3038

>. Australia.

>Ph: 0418 328 278

>Ph/Fax : (61 3) 9449 1856

>

>or in India

>Mr Geoff Heaviside

>

>Mobile : (91) 9840 097 178

> (SMS when not in India)

>

> " The new century is not going to be new at all if we offer only charity,

>that palliative to satisfy the conscience and keep the same old system of

>haves and have-nots quietly contained. "

>

>Kenya aids is a forum on hiv/aids you can join at

>http://www./group/

>

>You can also join another Kenyan community based group that is open to all.

>This forum has ngos and members that are networking on how to help

>communities in Kenya and the url is

>Kenyainternationalgroup

>

>You can be subscribed directly by contacting the moderator chifu at

>chifu2222@...

>

>Thank you for being a member.

>

>Chifu

>

September 20, 2006

Well Evatt my friend,

I am already active in the communities of the countries of Africa where I am

already involved.

I am a Parent to dozens of African born boys. I repair homes, pay

rent, buy food, pay hospital bills and pay school fees and try to find

places in the paid workforce for those that finish study and sponsor some

for overseas study options so I consider myself to be an African parent

learning all the time.

They are all highly skilled in the art of HIV prevention and half of them

have been cast out from their families because of their gender orientation

over which they had no control.

Some are even in studies for the Priesthood and they are being encouraged to

see all of Gods creations to equal in the sight of God when they are

eventually ordained.

The revised ABCD was not of my making. It came from an indigenous and well

respected African participant in the ICASA 2005 conference which I attended.

As well as the work in Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda and Rwanda I am presently

drafting materials to be utilised by affected and infected communities in

Ghana and Nigeria because there is urgent work to do and a pending

invitation to go to Gambia and Morocco.

I dont remember how much different our ages are but it will be in God's

hands which one of us goes first so I wont worry too much about the timing

of when I leave the planet. In the meantime there is a lot to do to empower

communities and keep them safe from both diseases and from exploitation.

It is comforting to know that prevention practices including the use of

condoms is widespread even in places where I have not been but too much

ignorance still exists on the one hand and far too much stigma and

discrimination affecting the lives of PLWA's on the other for either of us

to rest on our laurels. HIV does not have a concept of African and Western

in the way in which it affects human bodies nor should the prevention

practices that we teach, or the medicines we take, or the toxicity

information we share. In fact there is no room for xenophobic reactions when

it comes to dealing with this pandemic.

Thanks anyway for always being the first to write back to me in the list

where I have been noticably quiet of late due to pressing issues related to

support and initiatives elsewhere.

Geoffrey

Geoff Heaviside

HIV/AIDS Policy Consultant

Convenor - Brimbank Community Initiatives Inc

Secretary - International Centre for Health Equity Inc

Member - Australasian Society for HIV Medicine Inc

Member - ILGA Brussels

P.O. Box 2400 s Lakes 3038

. Australia.

Ph: 0418 328 278

Ph/Fax : (61 3) 9449 1856

or in India

Mr Geoff Heaviside

Mobile : (91) 9840 097 178

(SMS when not in India)

" The new century is not going to be new at all if we offer only charity,

that palliative to satisfy the conscience and keep the same old system of

haves and have-nots quietly contained. "

>From: " Evatt Mugarura " <emugarura@...>

>Reply-AIDS treatments

>AIDS treatments

>Subject: RE: Circumcision, Abstinence & Behaviour Change in

>Africa

>Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 18:46:16 +0000

>

>Geoffrey,

>

>I m not surprised by th way you urgue your case on the best way to prevent

>HIV infection if all you are trying to do is to totally dislodge the place

>of ABC the way I know it and have used the method. By this kind of bias you

>really put off network members like my sef not to waste time debating on

>what is already concluded on. My only comment is that as long as you

>present

>a condom like that, it will never gain ground even if it was the best and

>the only mean to prevent all further infections in Africa.

>

>Since you have access to people like my self, there is even no need to hold

>this debate but to go into the field and advocate for what we believe works

>for the people we work with. That's it! The western way of looking at life

>and problems in Africa can not and will never be divorced from the

>increased

>problems and the many mistakes that have occured in Africa. Itwill probably

>might happen when I will no longer be on this planet. The imposition

>attitude is still strong! The exploitative tendencies is unbelievable! name

>it.

>

>Evatt

>

> >From: " Geoffrey Heaviside " <gheaviside@...>

> >Reply-AIDS treatments

> >AIDS treatments

> >Subject: Circumcision, Abstinence & Behaviour Change in

>Africa

> >Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 22:05:50 +1000

> >

> >Dear and other readers,

> >

> >Here it is nearly the end of 2006 and we are still discussing Abstinence

> >and

> >Morality whilst so many Africans continue to get infected.

> >Now I am even seeing circumcision being mis-described as a prevention

>tool

> >when it is nothing more nor less that a risk factor in the transmission

> >education modalities.

> >Circumcision doesn’t prevent HIV transmission but if you are an

> >uncircumsized male and you dare to have unprotected sex you have a higher

> >risk of infection than someone who is circumcised.

> >If sex is more mental than physical then HIV would not be a problem

>because

> >HIV cannot yet be transmitted mentally.

> >It is easy for those who are or can look forward to being happily married

> >to

> >reconcile morality issues but that option is not open or experiential to

> >all

> >Africans yet.

> >Ask any of the 400 young women I spoke to who believed in abstinence yet

> >became infected either by an infected husband, a wife inheritance or

>being

> >forced to have sex against their will, what would have helped them more.

> >

> >There are some facts about HIV that everyone should know:

> >

> >One is that the more partners you have the more risks you take in being

> >exposed,

> >The other is that condoms provide significant protection against both

> >unintended pregnancy and HIV infection and this protection level improves

> >if

> >the following conditions exist:-

> >

> >Alternatives to penetration in erotic behaviour.

> >Good quality and easily accessible and affordable condoms are available

> >Proper lubrication is easily accessible, affordable and appropriately

>used

> >Skills in the proper use of condoms are known and understood by all post

> >pubescent citizens. (even the married ones who don’t want any more

> >children)

> >

> >These facts are universal and it is only aspects of religion and cultural

> >practices that impact on their effectiveness. It has nothing to do with

> >modernization although I want to indicate later in this essay that

> >education

> >and gender rights will have a great influence on the epidemic in the same

> >way that it has done in the west where access to education is much higher

> >than the MDG’s for Africa in particular. (MDG = Millenium Development

> >Goals)

> >

> >It is hard to believe that three years into the UN Literacy Decade

> >2003-2012

> >more than 800 million adults are still illiterate and 94 countries, many

>of

> >them African, have failed to ensure gender parity in Primary Education by

> >2005.

> >

> >MDG’s are inter-related and progress towards one goal contributes to

> >progress towards one or more of the others. Research has clearly shown

>that

> >investments in education that are affordable have flow on effects in

> >improving health and nutrition, particularly for women, contributing to

> >family planning, increasing economic opportunities and earning

>capacities,

> >empowering women, encouraging community participation in decision making

> >and

> >even improving the environment.

> >“If children are young shoots, growing up in the soil of their family,

> >social and cultural background, then education is the water and the

> >sunlight

> >that provides growth towards the child’s full potential”. (Thurley, B.)

> >

> >Education is often described as the foundation of not just an

>individual’s,

> >but a whole society’s, economic productiveness. It is the key vehicle for

> >the transmission of culture and the replication of social norms and

>values,

> >as well as being regarded as a fundamental human right.

> >

> >There probably aren’t any investments in education that bring

> >proportionately more benefit than investing in education of girls and

> >women.

> >Educated girls are more likely to marry later, have fewer children, and

> >space the births further apart, access medical care for themselves and

> >their

> >children – leading to improved maternal health and healthier, better

> >nourished children – educate their own children and have an improved

> >earning

> >capacity and to quote , “MDG’s are doomed unless we make

> >gender

> >inequality history.”

> >

> >I want to finish this contribution to the debate about what we do about

>HIV

> >as it emanated from the ICASA 2005 Conference.

> >

> >Collectively we revised the ABC of HIV to include D as follows for Africa

> >in

> >particular:-

> >

> >A is Adherence

> >

> >B is Becoming Knowledgeable

> >

> >C was Maintaining a Community Focus (which should of course include the

> >religious

> > community)

> >

> >D Do Not Squander Scarce Resources.

> >

> >Finally let me say why the Karimojong people of Uganda have low rates of

> >HIV

> >infection. It is primarily because they have not yet been exposed to the

> >Virus.

> >The Aboriginal people of remote Australia also had low rates of infection

> >once upon a time until the Virus came into their Community and now the

> >incidence is a serious concern. Nothing to do with modernity or culture.

> >The

> >best thing that could happen to the Karimojong people of Uganda is for

> >their

> >Tribal Elders to become very well informed because it is unbelievable how

> >many women became infected in this world who were virgins right to their

> >marriages and if they had been better informed they could have determined

>a

> >regime for unprotected sexual encounters with their husbands whose HIV

> >status could have been known before their honeymoons.

> >

> >This whole epidemic is only going to come under control when infected

> >people, (including increasing numbers of clergy and teachers in Africa in

> >particular, lest people think that morality is only a problem with the

>poor

> >and uneducated) are cared for adequately, and the uninfected know enough

>to

> >avoid infection and this knowledge has to be imparted as soon after

>puberty

> >as practicable and include the diverse representation of sexualities.

> >

> >I have no quarrel with abstinence as a super prevention strategy provided

> >it

> >includes a ban on all oral stimulation such as kissing and provided that

> >there is a general tribal understanding that when girls and boys say no

> >they

> >mean no and sexual abuse ceases.

> >

> >One thing that we can all agree on is that behaviour change is crucial,

> >, and anyone who has read this far, I am more than happy to continue

> >discussions about behaviour change at both levels, infected and

>uninfected.

> >There is much to share and some foolproof sexual health and safety

>messages

> >that need to be understood but of even more crucial importance is the new

> >BIG C above, namely community focus.

> >

> >The one changed feature in global HIV politics is that Africa is no

>longer

> >the highest prevalence country but for the suffering and dying infected

> >Africans that is no comfort, and a solution is possible but it has to be

> >everyone’s responsibility.

> >

> >Geoffrey

> >

> >September 2006

> >

> >geoflowd@...

> >

> >Geoff Heaviside

> >HIV/AIDS Policy Consultant

> >Convenor - Brimbank Community Initiatives Inc

> >Secretary - International Centre for Health Equity Inc

> >Member - Australasian Society for HIV Medicine Inc

> >Member - ILGA Brussels

> >P.O. Box 2400 s Lakes 3038

> >. Australia.

> >Ph: 0418 328 278

> >Ph/Fax : (61 3) 9449 1856

> >

> >or in India

> >Mr Geoff Heaviside

> >

> >Mobile : (91) 9840 097 178

> > (SMS when not in India)

> >

> > " The new century is not going to be new at all if we offer only charity,

> >that palliative to satisfy the conscience and keep the same old system of

> >haves and have-nots quietly contained. "

> >

> >Kenya aids is a forum on hiv/aids you can join at

> >http://www./group/

> >

> >You can also join another Kenyan community based group that is open to

>all.

> >This forum has ngos and members that are networking on how to help

> >communities in Kenya and the url is

> >Kenyainternationalgroup

> >

> >You can be subscribed directly by contacting the moderator chifu at

> >chifu2222@...

> >

> >Thank you for being a member.

> >

> >Chifu

> >

September 20, 2006