RE: Another EFA question

[Guest guest]

Ok, you confused me . Could you clarify. I read the archives but am still

confused. I bought the Omega 3-6-9 Junior (my local store did not carry the

ProEFA and I didn't want to wait for it to be shipped from an online site)

which actually has slightly higher levels of the EFAs per serving than the

ProEFA adult version according to the Nordic Naturals website. Am I reading

something wrong? Please help!

Thanks, Anja

PS I have started my daughter on it on Thursday and I already saw quite a

difference starting today. Thanks!!!

On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 7:26 PM, kiddietalk <kiddietalk@...> wrote:

> Hi Anja,

>

> Here's a long archive to answer the question about the difference

> between the regular and the " jr "

>

> Re: Fish oil question - so sorry!

>

> Well you are both right. Yes the Jr. is the same formula and yes you

> want the regular and not the Jr. There really is no need for a 1/2

> dosage of what would be found in infant formula for most children.

>

> I LOVE the JR....if you want to teach your child how to swallow the

> capsules. And yes for those that would need a 1/2 dosage for

> whatever reason. But again that would for sure fall outside the norm

> because the Jr didn't even exist for years after we all started

> ProEFA. It's marketing. No such thing as " child's " fish oil.

>

> Here's a huge archive that will either clear this up or confuse

> everyone more...but I hope clear things up.

>

> Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:30 pm

> ProEFA Jr or not Jr that is the ?

>

> I know that you are already aware the Jr version is the same

> thing as the ProEFA (what this group used for years) ProEFA Jr is

> just a 1/2 dosage, and since the same amount of capsules for about

> the same cost -twice as expensive. Want to repost because I want

> new members to know this too. If your child finds the Jr. easier to

> chew and swallow- then perhaps the twice as expensive cost won't

> matter. However I know quite a few members if you check the

> archives who have children that chew the regular sized ProEFA.

>

> Also for the person that adds the DHA to the ProEFA -you are changing

> the

> formula to one that's higher in Omega 3 and mainly in DHA -and that's

> not

> necessarily a good thing. May be better off adding ProEPA or Coromega

> or one

> like both of them that is higher in the EPA which appears to be

> better (but

> don't raise the Omega 3 too high even with EPA without the Omega

> 6/GLA or again

> that may not work either)

>

> Again however if you want the same product at around 1/2 the price -

> that would

> be the ProEFA.

>

> From: " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@... <kiddietalk%40>>

> Date: Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:31 am

> Subject: Re: question on proEfa jr.? kiddietalk

>

> There again is no such thing as a " Jr. " fish oil. Companies can

> make the bottle packaging/names/flavors/size of capsules more

> appealing to children -but fish oil is fish oil.

>

> ProEFA Jr. does have a cute bottle.

>

> As far as dosage -One capsule of ProEFA (the regular) has the same

> dosage as about what the FDA approved for the dosage in infant

> formula. Can't get much younger than that!

>

> " The question is can EFAs be supplemented to younger children so

> that verbal apraxia/dyspraxia can be prevented? The simple

> theoretical answer to this is a yes. Recently, the U.S. Food and

> Drug Administration approved the addition of 100 mg/day of DHA

> (Docosahexaenoic, an omega-3 EFA) and 100 mg/day of ARA (arachidonic

> acid, an omega-6 EFA) that is produced from GLA to infant formula.

> The purpose is to make infant formulas more like breast milk. So,

> giving the content of one ProEFA to an eight months old would

> provide about the same amount of DHA and half the ARA. Since some of

> the linoleic acid from the borage oil will be transformed by body

> into ARA, the total ARA will be close to the 100 mg/day dose. The

> 140 mg of EPA will be welcomed by the body. "

> http://www.cherab.org/information/dietaryeffects/efatips.html#Here

>

> http://www.expectalipil.com/

>

> Negatives and positives of ProEFA Jr.

>

> One dosage of ProEFA Jr. is half the dosage of one capsule of

> ProEFA, or another way of saying this is that two ProEFA Jr. equals

> one ProEFA. The price per bottle is about the same for ProEFA and

> ProEFA Jr. (also can be called " 1/2 dosage " ) And both bottles

> contain 90 capsules each. So even though the same oil - ProEFA Jr.

> is twice as expensive as ProEFA -which is the biggest negative.

>

> If like most here you are going to just put a pin in the capsule and

> squeeze out the oil, the size of the capsule is irrelevant in

> regards to swallowing the capsule. For most of us here have

> children that can not swallow the capsules (and only a few that have

> children that will pop the capsules in their mouth to chew them)

>

> The ProEFA Jr however is excellent in my eyes for 2 reasons...

>

> 1. It's smaller so it may be easier to teach the child how to

> swallow capsules.

>

> 2. Since it's an exact half dosage -good for those that wish to

> start/raise the dosage 1/2 capsule at a time.

>

> Here is the message that launched the Jr. Shop In Service 'may' be

> the only place to buy it online still.

>

> From: " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@... <kiddietalk%40>>

> Date: Tue Oct 5, 2004 11:07 pm

> Subject: Introducing...ProEFA Jr. !!

>

> Most of the new people here don't know why...but once again -Shop In

> Service is the first to offer to our CHERAB members Nordic Naturals

> ProEFA " Jr. " !!!

>

> http://www.speech411.com/

> Click on ProEFA -then scroll to bottom.

>

> ProEFA Jr. is so new -it's not yet even

> up on the Nordic Naturals website. They want to know what you guys

> think of it.

>

> ProEFA Jr. is the same product as ProEFA but just a 1/2 sized

> dosage. It's a much smaller capsule -so 'may' be easier for some

> older children to swallow. In addition this ProEFA Jr. will be

> great for those who only want to start/raise dosage 1/2 capsule at a

> time.

>

> The photo is not up yet at the Shop In Service site -but it has the

> same cute little goldfish as the DHA Jr. bottle.

>

> (PS why Shop In Service is the 'original')

> http://www.cherab.org/information/historyEFA.html

>

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~end of archives

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

Hi again Anja!

Sorry the archives probably talk just about ProEFA but ProEFA and

Omega 369 are the same product and years ago none of us used anything

but the professional line because it was way cheaper -today the Pro

line is still cheaper but not way cheaper. The ProEFA is in the

professional line (90 capsules per bottle) and the Omega 369 is the

commercial line (60 capsules per bottle)

OK so let's use Omega 369 if that makes it less confusing:

The Omega 369 and the Omega 369 jr is the exact same formula.

The Jr. however is an exact half dosage of the regular sized capsule

of Omega 369.

You get the same amount of capsules for about the same cost which

makes the Jr twice as expensive.

In my opinion the Jr is not worth paying twice as much for unless you

want to teach your child how to swallow the capsules. Then it's SO

worth it.

For most parents with little kids they pierce the capsule and squeeze

out the oil so the size of the capsule is irrelevant.

Outside of teaching kids how to swallow capsules- the Jr bottle is

cuter! (I'll give it props for that)

And for those that say " but , what if you only want to use a 1/2

dosage? " If you need a half dosage you can always just squeeze out

half a capsule and put the rest in the fridge -why pay twice as much

that' just silly in my opinion -especially in today's economy!

And about dosage for those that do want a half dosage...

The Omega 369 (or ProEFA) regular capsule is about equivalent to the

dosage of EFAs approved for infant formula by the FDA...so by giving

your child 1/2 a dosage you are giving 1/2 dosage less EFAs than if

you gave him infant formula!

http://www.cherab.org/information/dietaryeffects/efatips.html#Here

Most people buy the Jr and use 2 capsules of it...that would be one

capsule of the regular. Is it clear now?

=====

[Guest guest]

Ok, I think I know now what the misunderstanding was about. I am not using

the capsules but the Liquid. The jr liquid is comparable (actually has

higher doses as the adult capsules) to the adult capsules. I saw that the Jr

capsules are about half of the liquid and about half od the ProEFA adult

caps as you stated. Thanks!

Anja

On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 9:03 PM, kiddietalk <kiddietalk@...> wrote:

> Hi again Anja!

>

> Sorry the archives probably talk just about ProEFA but ProEFA and

> Omega 369 are the same product and years ago none of us used anything

> but the professional line because it was way cheaper -today the Pro

> line is still cheaper but not way cheaper. The ProEFA is in the

> professional line (90 capsules per bottle) and the Omega 369 is the

> commercial line (60 capsules per bottle)

>

> OK so let's use Omega 369 if that makes it less confusing:

>

> The Omega 369 and the Omega 369 jr is the exact same formula.

>

> The Jr. however is an exact half dosage of the regular sized capsule

> of Omega 369.

>

> You get the same amount of capsules for about the same cost which

> makes the Jr twice as expensive.

>

> In my opinion the Jr is not worth paying twice as much for unless you

> want to teach your child how to swallow the capsules. Then it's SO

> worth it.

>

> For most parents with little kids they pierce the capsule and squeeze

> out the oil so the size of the capsule is irrelevant.

>

> Outside of teaching kids how to swallow capsules- the Jr bottle is

> cuter! (I'll give it props for that)

>

> And for those that say " but , what if you only want to use a 1/2

> dosage? " If you need a half dosage you can always just squeeze out

> half a capsule and put the rest in the fridge -why pay twice as much

> that' just silly in my opinion -especially in today's economy!

>

> And about dosage for those that do want a half dosage...

>

> The Omega 369 (or ProEFA) regular capsule is about equivalent to the

> dosage of EFAs approved for infant formula by the FDA...so by giving

> your child 1/2 a dosage you are giving 1/2 dosage less EFAs than if

> you gave him infant formula!

> http://www.cherab.org/information/dietaryeffects/efatips.html#Here

>

> Most people buy the Jr and use 2 capsules of it...that would be one

> capsule of the regular. Is it clear now?

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

I have a question. My son is five and he has had very slow speech, I decided

once again to try the Pro EFA two to one ratio. I don't know if it is a

combination of that and some other things going on in his life, such as

therapies

and B12 shots, etc, but he is really trying to talk now. I can understand

when he says water, or ice cream and he doesn't need his Pecs book, he talks

quietly, so I have to remind him to speak up, but he has had kind of a break

through. He has been on the 2 Pro EFA and the 1 Pro EPA for about two weeks.

Just wondering when and if it is a good idea to adjust the dose or just leave

it. I get kind of weary about giving him too much fish oil, just because it is

a blood thinner, and I don't like to give him too much stuff when I am not

sure what will happen, maybe it is the I am thinking about the problems with

the Speak supplements. He is doing so good and I want it to continue, also I

worry if he got too much fish oil maybe he would get diarrhea. Any suggestions.

Jen

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cemailfooterNO62)

[Guest guest]

Yay Jen!!! Wooohoooo!!!!! I'd stay where you are right now as it's

only been 2 weeks so I wouldn't think of raising it yet -but when you

do raise the oils I'd raise the ProEFA first...and then add

another...and then add the ProEPA -you always want to raise the ProEFA

prior to the ProEPA and keep that 2/1 ratio.

You say you aren't sure if it's the EFAs or the other things you are

doing? Stop the EFAs and keep doing the other things and then stop

the other things and keep doing just the EFAs and let us know. Most

likely you'll find what the majority of us did -that it is the fish

oils in the right formula and dosage.

About the bleeding question...common concern for the newbies - this

group is now ten years old and we've had thousands of reports but

(outside of speak which I do NOT recommend at all- even to try)

nothing about bleeding issues or any type of severe side effect at all

for just fish oil -so that in itself tells you something! And of

course all of us have done research on this outside this group and

there's much out there on how fish oil is a natural blood thinner that

works with the body which isn't the same as a man made blood thinner

that thins the blood no matter what.

Below is an archive on more -but again -CONGRATULATIONS!!!!:

Re: EFA Oils, Surgery and Bleeding Issues

Here is a response from developmental pediatrician Dr. Marilyn Agin,

M.D. regarding discontinuing fish oils prior to surgery.

" There is no need to discontinue EFAs weeks before surgery. The oils

have a slight anticoagulation effect but there have been no reports

about clotting problems. To be cautious, we had recommended stopping

the EFAs a few days before surgery, but that may not even be

necessary, especially for ear tubes or strabismus (eye) surgery where

there is virtually no blood loss. If there is a child though, that

has a preexisting hematologic (blood-related) problem, the parents

should first speak to their hematologist or pediatrician before

starting EFAs. Just remember taking EFAs is akin to eating a fatty

fish meal (e.g., salmon, sardines) so it is generally perfectly safe

to use them, unless your child is allergic to fish! "

Marilyn Agin, MD

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~and since not anything on bleeding for fish oils

Re: fish oil and bruising

Hey Dawn!

Below are some archives from this group on bruising and EFAs. I

know you are seeing some amazing surges from the recent increase

(and heard from Kathy too) but it was a large increase all at once

and you are now up to 9 capsules a day. Perhaps after speaking with

your child's doc just go back to where you were -the 6? And increase

one capsule at a time instead (ProEFAs first then the ProEPA)

Anyway -so far nobody found out any direct links on this even when

tested as you'll read in the archives below. Can tell you that I

used to bruise lots as a child too and was not on fish oil. I seem

to have outgrown it because I don't bruise as easily now as I did

then. But yes in my case I was borderline anemic as a child -but

don't think you just develop that all of a sudden -but don't know.

(come to think of it I stopped bruising since being on the fish oils!)

From: " Marilyn Agin M.D. "

Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 9:06 am

Subject: EFAs/ side effects

Hi Everyone,

These issues about the potential side effects of the EFAs do

frequently come up. I typically mention the anticoagulation effect to

parents b/c everyone always asks about side effects. The only way we

are going to know for sure is to do a bleeding time on a group of

kids on EFAs. It is a blood test to check how fast your blood clots.

There was one case that came up maybe 6 mos ago about a mom who

discovered increased bruising in her child. I suggested she take him

off the EFAs and get a CBC to check his platelets. The blood test was

fine and she resumed the supplement at a lower dose.

Re: seizures, I think there is probably a very small risk and a lot

to gain in a seizure prone child. I think if we suggest starting

with a low dose and building up slowing there shouldn't be a

problem. There is always the possibility of drug interactions with

the EFAs but that would be more so in the adult population. We always

need to say check w/ your doctor, even though we may know more than

the practitioner!

I summary, we should say the EFAs appear to be safe and are unlikely

to cause bleeding or seizures in seizure prone children, but we

typically advise parents to check with their pediatricians in these

situations.

Marilyn Agin MD

Re: fish oil and surgery

Hi ,

I've never heard about time 'after' surgery to be off the fish oils -

but check with your child's surgeon.

And before surgery -to be or not to be on the oils,

that's still the question.

There's actually an unofficial look into surgery and mega high

dosages of fish oils. The largest group of people prescribed to be

on high dosages of fish oils daily by their MDs are those with heart

disease. Those with diagnosed heart disease also happen to be the

group who may have no chance to stop the fish oils prior to surgery

due to say emergency open heart surgery...and yet there are no cases

of hemorrhaging for those taking the high dosages of fish oils as

per Dr. Stoll (read Dr. Stoll's quote below) and Dr.

(quote below as well) In addition as you will read

below in one of the archives my own Mom went in for open heart

surgery and her heart surgeon told her she did not have to stop

taking her fish oils prior -and my Mom (reported by those in the

operating room) had very little bleeding during surgery, and for

sure she healed much faster than the norm. This is probably because

fish oil is not like man made blood thinners -it works with the body

as needed.

Here's a small quote from a much larger article from the Saturday

Evening Post. An interview with Dr. Stoll:

" Post: Is there a downside to supplementing with omega-3?

Dr. Stoll: There isn't. Some people may experience GI distress if

they take a large amount of a low-quality supplement. But the

highest good-quality fish oil is not rancid and has little or no

taste and has no side effects. Another issue that people worry about

is bleeding, because EPA inhibits platelet aggregation. But we

scoured the scientific literature, and there has never been a

documented case of bleeding due to omega-3 fatty acids.

We recently reviewed about 18,000 people who participated in

clinical trials with omega-3s, largely in cardiology studies, and we

couldn't find one instance of bleeding in any of the trials. There

was no bleeding, even if used in IVs prescribed before and during

cardiac surgery. I think this perception is a myth because omega-3s

don't inhibit the platelets as strongly as aspirin–perhaps 60 to 70

percent as much as aspirin–and unlike aspirin, the effect is

reversible.

Post: When a patient is on blood thinners, such as coumadin, should

they exercise caution when supplementing with omega-3?

Dr. Stoll: In that situation, I usually recommend a lower dose, not

exceeding one or two grams of EPA per day. At this dosage, there

should be no effect on the action of coumadin. The unanswered

question is, together are they providing too much anticoagulation?

Nonetheless, there may be some minute risk of a negative interaction

with anticoagulants, such as warfarin (coumadin), high-dose aspirin,

or ibuprofen-like medications, based on animal data and anecdotal

reports in humans.

However, large-scale controlled clinical trials with patients

receiving omega-3 fatty acid supplements with either aspirin or

warfarin observed no cases of bleeding even after one year of the

combined treatments. It would be a shame if cardiac patients or

their physicians avoided the use of omega-3 supplements out of fear.

I am thoroughly convinced that the dramatic and lifesaving cardiac

actions of omega-3s far outweigh the very small or nonexistent risk

of bleeding. "

SOURCE: Saturday Evening Post, May/June 2005, by .

http://www.satevepost.org/issues/2005/0506/7370750.shtml

Small quote from Dr. -more below in archives:

" There is a

long-standing myth that omega-3s cause bleeding. We have used data

from 18,000 or 20,000 patients who were in clinical trials over the

years-mostly in heart disease, and there is not one case of bleeding

from omega-3s "

http://www.equazen.com/newsfile_newsletter4_contents.htm

I had my tonsils taken out in kindergarten and had to be rushed to

emergancy because I started to hemorrhage. Even though I was only

five years old I will never forget those horrible moments in my life

having a tube forced down my throat while being down, that's how I

remember it. Thing is -I was not on fish oil then. Sure there are

horror stories about surgeries - but those stories like mine are the

exception -not the rule with or without fish oil in the picture.

So far in this group this topic has come up a number of times and no

problems with bleeding reported by those that stopped or didn't stop

the oils prior to surgery. (most do stop a week before as a just in

case) Below are some archives on this, best to you and your child

during this time, and speedy recovery to her!

Here's some archives on this topic:

From: " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@...>

Date: Mon Apr 29, 2002 11:20 pm

Subject: Re: QUESTION

Hi ,

Tanner never had surgery since on the EFAs in the past three years,

but about a year ago my mom was diagnosed with heart problems and

needed surgery so of course I had her go on high dosages of EFAs. My

mom informed her heart surgeon she was on the Omega 3's and he OK's

it. When she went through surgery they reported little blood loss

and that it went great (I take their word for it -wasn't there) Her

healing time was amazing and quick and she's back to teaching ball

room dance again (she's 72 -and Liz from Georgia knows -kind

of a stand up she's so funny) And yes she's still on the Omega 3/6

formula -but I'm not sure if she needs the 6 too like our kids do -or

just the 3?

Anyway -you may want to read up online about the differences between

a natural blood thinner like fish oil and a man made blood thinner

like aspirin in books like Dr. Stoll's book The Omega 3 Connection,

or read about natural blood thinners at sites like

http://www.cdc-cdh.edu/hospital/cardio/art7.html .

What I hear, just like Dr. Agin states below, is stopping the EFAs a

week before the surgery -and then continuing after. Of course there

is also the other side of the coin with surgery and fish oil-there

was an article published in the Sept. 1, 2001 issue of The Lancet

stating that a supplement combination of L-arginine, omega-3 fatty

acids, and brewer's yeast helped improve post-operative recovery from

heart surgery. The patients given the supplement combination had

stronger immune response and experienced fewer post-operative

infections than patients receiving placebo.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_1517000/1517318.stm

If you really don't want to stop the EFAs for a week -you can try

increasing the amount of fish sticks your child eats that week. And

if your child really misses the fishy taste of the fish oil you can

buy some Harry Potter Bertie Botts Every Flavor Beans at Toys R Us

and hope you get a sack with lots of sardine flavored beans in it.

(yuck I thought it was coconut!!...well they are both the white

ones!!)

And speaking of Toys R Us and the recent posts about reading

programs -I know there are fabulous educational sites and programs

out there for learning to read and write, etc. Don't underestimate

the power of a good toy inventor (OK -so I used to do that) or

creator ( that too) to market something that is good for your child

in a way that is fun. I really respect Henson -we miss you Jim, PBS,

Nick, and Noggin for doing a great job of that -and Disney too of

course. So while you are checking out stuff online at educational

sites -like CHERAB advisor Dr. a Tallal's Fast For Word program

at http://www.scientificlearning.com which is highly recommended from

what I hear and read -have fun and browse the toy stores like Zany

Brainy, FAO Schwarz, Learning Express, and Toys R Us, etc. for

educational books, games -including electronic games like LeapFrog

http://www.leapfrog.com (never ending learning -can't beat that) -

and software. Also find a great kids library section in your own

town -or another town over and take your child to the read alongs,

etc. they schedule. Some PlayStation and Nintendo games are

educational believe it or not. They have Sesame Street, Dragon

Tales, Disney, etc.

Even videos can teach. My kids love this cheap little home video

called Operation Dalmatian Fun With Letters with the Z Meany Evil

Wizard who teases Zim Zim and his dog Zoo when they are singing the

alphabet song by mock singing " A, B, C, D, wah -wah -wah " and he

does an awful thing (don't want to give the ending away... OK just a

bit -he blows a gust of wind and sends Zim Zim's dog Zoo to A land,

and Zoo has to go through the whole alphabet to get back to Zim Zim)

You know maybe when I'm done with this nonprofit stuff I'll go back

to animation -sometimes I miss it (can you tell?)

~~~~~~~~~~end of archive

=====

[Guest guest]

This is related to my original question. The 3-6-9 junior LIQUID has

higher amounts of ingredients than in adult 3-6-9 or ProEFA

capsules, but the ratios are slightly different. The adult liquid

ProEFA or 3-6-9 has much higher ingredients in a dose. I could

adjust the dose, but again the ratios would be different than using

capsules. From reading the archives, it is the ratio which seems to

be important. Has anyone else used the liquid and seen the same

improvements?

I could keep using the caspsules, it just seems that all of the

liquid does not come out, and it is more of a pain than just using

the liquid.

Dara

>

> > Hi again Anja!

> >

> > Sorry the archives probably talk just about ProEFA but ProEFA and

> > Omega 369 are the same product and years ago none of us used

anything

> > but the professional line because it was way cheaper -today the

Pro

> > line is still cheaper but not way cheaper. The ProEFA is in the

> > professional line (90 capsules per bottle) and the Omega 369 is

the

> > commercial line (60 capsules per bottle)

> >

> > OK so let's use Omega 369 if that makes it less confusing:

> >

> > The Omega 369 and the Omega 369 jr is the exact same formula.

> >

> > The Jr. however is an exact half dosage of the regular sized

capsule

> > of Omega 369.

> >

> > You get the same amount of capsules for about the same cost which

> > makes the Jr twice as expensive.

> >

> > In my opinion the Jr is not worth paying twice as much for

unless you

> > want to teach your child how to swallow the capsules. Then it's

SO

> > worth it.

> >

> > For most parents with little kids they pierce the capsule and

squeeze

> > out the oil so the size of the capsule is irrelevant.

> >

> > Outside of teaching kids how to swallow capsules- the Jr bottle

is

> > cuter! (I'll give it props for that)

> >

> > And for those that say " but , what if you only want to use a

1/2

> > dosage? " If you need a half dosage you can always just squeeze

out

> > half a capsule and put the rest in the fridge -why pay twice as

much

> > that' just silly in my opinion -especially in today's economy!

> >

> > And about dosage for those that do want a half dosage...

> >

> > The Omega 369 (or ProEFA) regular capsule is about equivalent to

the

> > dosage of EFAs approved for infant formula by the FDA...so by

giving

> > your child 1/2 a dosage you are giving 1/2 dosage less EFAs than

if

> > you gave him infant formula!

> >

http://www.cherab.org/information/dietaryeffects/efatips.html#Here

> >

> > Most people buy the Jr and use 2 capsules of it...that would be

one

> > capsule of the regular. Is it clear now?

> >

> > =====

> >