Re: low ferritin, high TIBC

[Guest guest]

>

> p.s. just wondering if caffeine would aggravate anemia?? Also, could

> anemia be related to low thyroid?

According to http://www.womenof.com/articles/hc_8_30_04.asp

" Drinking coffee around mealtime can reduce

iron absorption from food by almost 40 percent. "

However, they attribute it to

" Compounds in coffee called polyphenols bind iron

in the digestive tract and prevent its absorption. "

rather than the caffeine.

-

www.zenpawn.com/vegblog

[Guest guest]

> From: " srapp785@... " srapp785@...

>Subject:

>

>

>Hi Group,

>Just found from blood work that though my serum iron is normal, ferritin

>is low and TIBC is high.

First, there are different opinions on what a low level of ferritin is. It

may have to be in the top half to be adequate. Here's one opinion -

http://www.mercola.com/2001/mar/7/iron_overload.htm

I have warned about the dangers of iron many times before in this

newsletter. It is a potentially dangerous supplement and it needs to be used

very cautiously, especially in those with an increased risk of heart

disease. I almost always run a serum ferritin level on someone before I

recommend going on iron.

Ferritin is an iron carrying protein and when its levels drop below 20 that

is a sign of iron deficiency. I have seen ferritin levels as low as 2.

Occasionally ferritin will be greater than 20 and the person still may need

iron.

******************

Secondly, unless you're hemocrit / hemoglobin are low, you are not anemic

and shouldn't take supplemental iron.

One should never take iron unless they need it.

Of course, if you took these tests because you had low hemoglobin /

hemocrit, then iron deficient anemia is probably confirmed.

http://www.mercola.com/forms/mpt.htm

" Hemoglobin: Hemoglobin provides the main transport of oxygen and carbon in

the blood. It is composed of " globin " , a group of amino acids that form a

protein and " heme " , which contains iron. It is an important determinant of

anemia (decreased hemoglobin) or poor diet/nutrition or malabsorption.

Hematocrit: Hematocrit is the measurement of the percentage of red blood

cells in whole blood. It is an important determinant of anemia (decreased),

dehydration (elevated) or possible overhydration (decreased). "

**********************************

If you have adequate hemoglobin, I don't think you have anemia.

Skipper

Apparently, this could be from anemia caused by

>low iron. MCV and MCH are both high, so this might indicate low levels of

>b12 & /or folic acid. Not sure if it could mean deficiencies of all these,

>or even other things?

>

>I had tese levlels taken because b/c of discussions here of iodine

>deficiency and low iron, though I must say I can't recall the exact

>details.

>I have lately been experiencing weakness, headache, loss of appetite,

>easy bruising. Apparently these could all be anemia symptoms.

>

>Any feedback, info, suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

>thanks,

>Dahlia

>p.s. just wondering if caffeine would aggravate anemia?? Also, could

>anemia be related to low thyroid?

>

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>________________________________________________________________________

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

> > From: " srapp785@... " srapp785@...

> >Subject:

> >

> >

> >Hi Group,

> >Just found from blood work that though my serum iron is normal,

ferritin

> >is low and TIBC is high.

>

> First, there are different opinions on what a low level of ferritin

is. It

> may have to be in the top half to be adequate. Here's one opinion -

>

> http://www.mercola.com/2001/mar/7/iron_overload.htm

> I have warned about the dangers of iron many times before in this

> newsletter. It is a potentially dangerous supplement and it needs

to be used

> very cautiously, especially in those with an increased risk of

heart

> disease. I almost always run a serum ferritin level on someone

before I

> recommend going on iron.

>

> Ferritin is an iron carrying protein and when its levels drop below

20 that

> is a sign of iron deficiency. I have seen ferritin levels as low as

2.

> Occasionally ferritin will be greater than 20 and the person still

may need

> iron.

> ******************

>

> Secondly, unless you're hemocrit / hemoglobin are low, you are not

anemic

> and shouldn't take supplemental iron.

>

> One should never take iron unless they need it.

>

> Of course, if you took these tests because you had low hemoglobin /

> hemocrit, then iron deficient anemia is probably confirmed.

>

> > If you have adequate hemoglobin, I don't think you have anemia.

>

> Skipper

>

Hi Skipper,

That's a great link from Mercola. My Ferritin is under 20--it's 18,

but the hemoglobin is normal. Not sure what to make of this,

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

> >

> > p.s. just wondering if caffeine would aggravate anemia?? Also,

could

> > anemia be related to low thyroid?

>

> According to http://www.womenof.com/articles/hc_8_30_04.asp

>

> " Drinking coffee around mealtime can reduce

> iron absorption from food by almost 40 percent. "

>

> However, they attribute it to

>

> " Compounds in coffee called polyphenols bind iron

> in the digestive tract and prevent its absorption. "

>

> rather than the caffeine.

>

>

> -

> www.zenpawn.com/vegblog

Hi ,

I didn't know coffee had polyphenols. Don't those play a role as

antioxidants? If so, I wonder if other foods rich in polyphenols

also inhibit iron absorption?

I read on ithyroid.com that iron deficiency anemia is common in hypos

and that iron is necessary for thyroid hormone and iodine to " work " .

I don't know if anybody has more info on this?

Dahlia

>

[Guest guest]

I WAS taking 100mg of elemental iron. Skipper posted the Mercola info so I

finished the bottle of iron syrup and have not continued. I thought possibly

that it was helping with my under eye darkness but with hemoglobin at 15.3

(12.3-16.3) and hematocrit 45.5 (37.4-47.0) I think that my blood was iron rich

enough.

Although I found this study:

" Our data suggest that alterations in thyroid status in a given individual

produce changes in serum ferritin levels. "

So maybe the reverse would be true also... elevate the the ferritin to enact

changes in thyroid status. Who knows?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=4\

031012 & dopt=Abstract

--- srapp785@... wrote:

> My ferritin is 56 (20-380). I am now taking 100 mg of elemental iron

> syrup.

>

> >

> > Where is your ferritin? If you have ferritin issues you will have

> problems

> > taking Armour. I am having issues right now due to this. My Ferritin

> is

> > VERY low.

> >

> >

> >

>

> >I had never done it until Dr. B did it with me. I was low on both

> accounts. I wonder how long that has >been going on. I wonder how long

> I have been low in a lot of stuff. I would explain a lot of things that

> >have happened through the years. Weird symptoms and illnesses. Too

> bad the full blood work I had is >so expensive.

>

> > Buist

>

> Hi ,

> I was just reading this thread on ferritin and was wondering what tests

> Dr. B did with you, and how your other numbers were (hemoglobin, tibc,

> etc). Are you still taking 100 mgs. of elemental iron syrup? Is it

> helping?

> Dahlia

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> > >

> > > p.s. just wondering if caffeine would aggravate anemia?? Also,

> could

> > > anemia be related to low thyroid?

> >

> > According to http://www.womenof.com/articles/hc_8_30_04.asp

> >

> > " Drinking coffee around mealtime can reduce

> > iron absorption from food by almost 40 percent. "

> >

> > However, they attribute it to

> >

> > " Compounds in coffee called polyphenols bind iron

> > in the digestive tract and prevent its absorption. "

> >

> > rather than the caffeine.

> >

> >

> > -

> > www.zenpawn.com/vegblog

>

> Hi ,

> I didn't know coffee had polyphenols. Don't those play a role as

> antioxidants?

Yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphenols

In fact, coffee was recently found to be the greatest source of

antioxidants in the US diet: http://www.physorg.com/news6067.html

Although coffee is indeed rather high in antioxidant content,

this finding is probably more an indication of the poor diet

of most Americans (i.e., low fruit and veggie consumption)

than a ringing endorsement for coffee. On the other hand,

I'd say the majority of studies these days are showing coffee

to be a net benefit, and I certainly drink my fair share!

> If so, I wonder if other foods rich in polyphenols

> also inhibit iron absorption?

Good question.

> I read on ithyroid.com that iron deficiency anemia is common in hypos

> and that iron is necessary for thyroid hormone and iodine to " work " .

> I don't know if anybody has more info on this?

> Dahlia

I too would be interested in answers to these last two questions.

-

www.zenpawn.com/vegblog

[Guest guest]

> From: " dahlia_918 " srapp785@...

>Subject: Hi Skipper,

>That's a great link from Mercola. My Ferritin is under 20--it's 18,

>but the hemoglobin is normal. Not sure what to make of this,

>Dahlia

I think that means you don't have anemia. If you don't have anemia, low

ferritin may not mean anything.

My primary care doc wanted me to give my son iron, however my thyroid doc

gave me a printout (probably from Ray Peat, a biochemist) talking about the

evils of iron, something I'd not heard about before. So, I didn't give him

the iron. Around this time, I'd read Mercola's comments about low

cholesterol, something I have (and it's not what it's cracked up to be) and

the fact it can be caused by an inherited kind of anemia. My wife, son and

I had similar readings on hemoglobin, MCV, and MCH. They would be out of

range (or close to it) in the same direction with each of us, in a way that

can indicate thalassemia. Eventually, I had our hemoglobin A2 (I think)

tested, and it was at a level that my thyroid doctor's book suggested was

indicative of thalassemia, however he said I would have to go to a

hemotologist to be sure (after all maybe their book has different ranges.)

Anyways, if I'm right about the thalassemia, iron would actually have been

especially bad. The only anemia you can cure with iron, is iron deficiency

anemia. The other side of that is iron overload can cause the same problems

as the inherited condition hemochromotosis.

Here's a few of Ray Peat's comments about iron -

" Many doctors think of anemia as necessarily indicating an iron deficiency,

but that isn't correct. 100 years ago, it was customary to prescribe arsenic

for anemia, and it worked to stimulate the formation of more red blood

cells. The fact that arsenic, or iron, or other toxic material stimulates

the formation of red blood cells doesn't indicate a " deficiency " of the

toxin, but simply indicates that the body responds to a variety of harmful

factors by speeding its production of blood cells.

Anemia in women is caused most often by a thyroid deficiency (as discussed

in the chapter on thyroid), or by various nutritional deficiencies. Estrogen

(even in animals that don't menstruate) causes dilution of the blood, so

that it is normal for females to have lower hemoglobin than males.

Iron causes cell aging.

Drinking coffee with iron rich foods can reduce iron's toxic effects. "

****************************************************

Skipper

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[Guest guest]

>Although I found this study:>"Our data suggest that alterations in thyroid status in a given individual>produce changes in serum ferritin levels." Hi ,

That study was helpful. On the basis of that, I did a little research and found some interesting data. Hope it's not too long:

Relation between thyroid status and ferritin metabolism in rats.Deshpande UR, Nadkarni GD.Rats were made hypo and 'hyperthyroid' with propylthiouracil (PTU) and L-Thyroxine (L-T) respectively. The hypo and hyperthyroid status in these rats were confirmed by serum level of T4 and T3. Liver iron was significantly increased in both the hypo and hyperthyroid animals. However, liver ferritin synthesis rate was reduced by 36% in hypothyroid rats, and elevated by 38% in hyperthyroid ones. A similar trend was seen in liver ferritin concentration. Further, serum transaminases were elevated only in animals of the hyperthyroid group. It appears from the present data that ferritin metabolism is influenced by thyroid hormone as well as by iron. Thus, the raised serum ferritin in hyperthyroid patients may be partially attributed to increased ferritin synthesis in the liver and its possible leakage into circulation.PMID: 1285038 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Aug;72(2 Suppl):594S-7S.

This may be relevant to others as well:

Iron status and exercise.Beard J, Tobin B.Although it is likely that dietary choices explain much of a negative iron balance, evidence also exists for increased rates of red cell iron and whole-body iron turnover.

I think there's a lot of stuff that goes on with poor thyroid function that doesn't get discussed, like the possible connections brought up here. And of course discussions we have had on minerals and thyroid.

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

Skipper writes:

Here's a few of Ray Peat's comments about iron -

" Many doctors think of anemia as necessarily indicating an iron

deficiency,

but that isn't correct. 100 years ago, it was customary to prescribe

arsenic

for anemia, and it worked to stimulate the formation of more red blood

cells. The fact that arsenic, or iron, or other toxic material stimulates

the formation of red blood cells doesn't indicate a " deficiency " of the

toxin, but simply indicates that the body responds to a variety of

harmful

factors by speeding its production of blood cells.

Anemia in women is caused most often by a thyroid deficiency (as

discussed

in the chapter on thyroid), or by various nutritional deficiencies.

Estrogen

(even in animals that don't menstruate) causes dilution of the blood, so

that it is normal for females to have lower hemoglobin than males.

Iron causes cell aging.

Drinking coffee with iron rich foods can reduce iron's toxic effects. "

****************************************************

Skipper

Thanks Skipper. I love Ray Peat (he is sometimes nutty!), I'm amazed

your doc gave you something by him.

Having done a tiny bit of reserach, I am now thinking low ferritin may be

correlated with low thyroid, which would make sense in my case. I

certainly won't supplement with iron, but I think I will start eating

more red meat (with an extra bit vit c taken with it).

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

http://www.mercola.com/2001/mar/7/iron_overload.htm> I have warned about the dangers of iron many times before in this> newsletter. It is a potentially dangerous supplement and it needs to > be used> very cautiously, especially in those with an increased risk of heart> disease. I almost always run a serum ferritin level on someone before I> recommend going on iron.>> Ferritin is an iron carrying protein and when its levels drop below 20 > that> is a sign of iron deficiency. I have seen ferritin levels as low as 2.> Occasionally ferritin will be greater than 20 and the person still may > need> iron.> ******************

Hi Skipper and everyone,

After doing a bit of brain-picking of some knowledgeable friends, what I have is technically called Negative Iron Balance, where iron levels are normal and ferritin levels are low. Here's an interesting article where the author breaks it down into four stages, the message seems to be don't let it progress further than stage 1 or 2.

~Dahlia

Comment in:

J Am Diet Assoc. 1993 May;93(5):526-7.Everyone should be tested for iron disorders.Herbert V.Mount Sinai School of Medicine and Medical Center, Bronx, NY.

Routinely measuring iron status is necessary because about 6% of Americans have negative iron balance, about 10% have a gene for positive balance, and about 1% have iron overload. Deviations from normal iron status are as follows. (a) Stage I and II negative iron balance, ie, iron depletion: In these stages iron stores are low and there is no dysfunction. In stage I negative iron balance, reduced iron absorption produces moderately depleted iron stores. Stage II negative iron balance is characterized by severely depleted iron stores. More than half of all cases of negative iron balance fall into these two stages. When persons in these stages are treated with iron, they never develop dysfunction or disease. ( Stage III and IV negative iron balance, ie, iron deficiency: Iron deficiency is characterized by inadequate body iron for normal function, producing dysfunction and disease. In stage III negative iron balance, dysfunction is not accompanied by anemia; anemia develops in stage IV negative iron balance. © Stage I and II positive iron balance: Stage I positive balance usually lasts for several years with no dysfunction. Supplements of iron and/or vitamin C promote progression to dysfunction or disease. Iron removal prevents progression to disease. Iron overload disease develops in stage II positive iron balance after years of iron overload has caused progressive damage to tissues and organs. Again, iron removal stops disease progression. There are a variety of indicators of iron status. Serum ferritin is in equilibrium with body iron stores.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)