Re: Iodine Test / Bruce West

[Guest guest]

Dr Derry's references do not support his conclusions. People differ on the Patch Test. Please read the discussion in Iodine Basics.

Zoe

Moderator

Re: Iodine Test / Bruce West

The iodine skin test has been debunked. Here's a link to a discussion of it by Dr. Derry:

http://thyroid.about.com/library/derry/bl2a.htm

Liz

[Guest guest]

>>People differ on the Patch

Test.  Please read the discussion in Iodine Basics.<<

I agree! When I first started using Lugol's topically it was staying on

only 5-6 hours, then daily it began staying longer till in 24 hours

after using it daily, it was still there, faint but still visible. This

was same humidity and same time of day and same area of skin..

-- Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

My Ebay Jewelry Store http://stores.ebay.com/valeriescrystalcreations http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

[Guest guest]

-- and anyone else who has done more than one patch test -- could you add your experiences to the database on Patch Test Results? Thanks! Zoe

>>People differ on the Patch Test. Please read the discussion in Iodine Basics.<<I agree! When I first started using Lugol's topically it was staying on only 5-6 hours, then daily it began staying longer till in 24 hours after using it daily, it was still there, faint but still visible. This was same humidity and same time of day and same area of skin..

[Guest guest]

Sure soon as I get home this afternoon, busy at work right now!

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

My Ebay Jewelry Store http://stores.ebay.com/valeriescrystalcreations

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

[Guest guest]

I just read about the skin test in Basics -- and it seems that most of the doctors quoted there agree that the skin absorption test for iodine need is not valid -- the only one who seems to think it might have some validity is Dr. Abraham. Are there studies that indicate otherwise?I have no doubt that iodine can be absorbed through skin -- but I can't imagine what the rate limiting factors would be in skin that would increase uptake based on whole body need.What references do you think that Dr. Derry uses do not support what he says. Are they in the files? I could look them up.LizOn Apr 1, 2006, at 6:08 AM, Zoe & wrote:Dr Derry's references do not support his conclusions.  People differ on the Patch Test.  Please read the discussion in Iodine Basics. ZoeModerator Re: Iodine Test / Bruce WestThe iodine skin test has been debunked. Here's a link to a discussion of it by Dr. Derry:http://thyroid.about.com/library/derry/bl2a.htmLiz

[Guest guest]

As far as I have been able to determine, there aren't any studies that really evaluate how much validity the Patch Test has. I bet I have heard at least 50 people quote Derry as proof that the Patch Test is worthless. That's why I checked out the Nyiri article that Derry primarily references. And that reference just doesn't provide good information on the patch test, except to demonstrate that iodine can be absorbed transdermally.

Derry relies mostly on an article by Nyiri and Jannitti: Nyiri,W., Jannitti,M. About the fate of free iodine upon application to the unbroken animal skin. J Pharmacol Exp Ther 45:85-107, 1932.

I couldn't find it on the web, so I got it through the library. Unfortunately, I don't have a way to add it to the files. I added the citation information to the links under Links > 51 Special Topics in Iodine > 03 Physiology of Iodine > 11 Iodine Absorption -- Transdermal and Oral > Transdermal Absorption (Skin)

The Nyiri article is a fascinating paper from 1931, talking about a lot of the old research on transdermal absorption of iodine, as well as presenting a research study involving six dogs and 44 rabbits. I think he does a good job in establishing that iodine is absorbed through the skin. He took special pains to show that the iodine absorption in the animals was not happening through evaporation and breathing the iodine. However, I don't think his study has any relevance for determining the validity of the patch test. In fact, he frequently mentions how much individual difference he found in the transdermal absorption. He does not attempt to explain why the individual differences existed.

Derry also references a second article that I have not yet gotten: Biskind,M.S. Penetration through tissue of iodine in different solvents. Proc Soc Exp Biol Med 30:35-37, 1932. If you should have a way of getting these two articles for our files, that would be great!!!

Your comment that, "I can't imagine what the rate limiting factors would be in skin that would increase uptake based on whole body need," is actually the best argument against the patch test that I have heard. It's a very good observation! The question seems to be, Does the skin have the capacity to selectively absorb any product based on body need? I don't know the answer to that one. I certainly have never heard of it (except, by inference, in the patch test). It's a great question that should be answerable.

We set up the database on patch test results just to see if, in the individual experience of the people on this group, it seems to show a correlation with body iodine levels.

Ideally, people on this group would try it at least once before starting supplementation. And then, they would repeat the same test at various times after starting supplementation. When possible, they would compare the results of the patch test with other body iodine measures (e.g., the loading test, spot urine, saliva, serum).

Granted, this would be very primitive research, not the large, double-blinded study with careful controls. It has all the limitations of subjective research. But it may give us some idea whether a more sophisticated research project can be justified.

There are a number of doctors (including Schachter listed under "important clinicians") that use the patch test. Abraham's latest paper on transdermal absorption (written, I believe, after we asked him about the patch test) focuses on the problems with the test. However, I don't think he makes a very good argument one way or the other on whether the patch test has any validity.

Hopefully, as we get more sophisticated studies on the transdermal absorption issue, factors that might affect the patch test will become more evident. And if the skin is simply not capable of selectively absorbing anything based on body need, then that question is answered.

Zoe

I just read about the skin test in Basics -- and it seems that most of the doctors quoted there agree that the skin absorption test for iodine need is not valid -- the only one who seems to think it might have some validity is Dr. Abraham. Are there studies that indicate otherwise?

I have no doubt that iodine can be absorbed through skin -- but I can't imagine what the rate limiting factors would be in skin that would increase uptake based on whole body need.

What references do you think that Dr. Derry uses do not support what he says. Are they in the files? I could look them up.

[Guest guest]

>

> >>People differ on the Patch Test. Please read the discussion in

> Iodine Basics.<<

>

> I agree! When I first started using Lugol's topically it was staying on

> only 5-6 hours, then daily it began staying longer till in 24 hours

> after using it daily, it was still there, faint but still visible. This

> was same humidity and same time of day and same area of skin..

I have to wonder if that last part may be responsible for your results

(i.e., " same area of skin " ). Perhaps a single area can become somewhat

saturated without indicating levels of iodine in the body. What happens

if you try on another patch of skin? Does it return to the 5-6 hour

disappearance rate?

Thanks,

-

[Guest guest]

>>I have to wonder if that last part may be responsible for your results

(i.e., " same area of skin " ). Perhaps a single area can become somewhat

saturated without indicating levels of iodine in the body. What happens

if you try on another patch of skin? Does it return to the 5-6 hour

disappearance rate?<<

No cause I thought of that and varied it a few times to stomach and calves.

--

Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

My Ebay Jewelry Store http://stores.ebay.com/valeriescrystalcreations

The BEST thyroid website! http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com

NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

[Guest guest]

I've had the same experience painting tincture of iodine. At first it

was gone in 4-5 hours, but not it lasts 12+. I never did the patch

test because I am so sensitive to increasing iodine quickly that I

never wanted to risk it - I have been painting for months and just

recently have gotten up to the amount that would be in a 2 " patch

test.

>

> >>People differ on the Patch Test. Please read the discussion in

> Iodine Basics.<<

>

> I agree! When I first started using Lugol's topically it was staying

on

> only 5-6 hours, then daily it began staying longer till in 24 hours

> after using it daily, it was still there, faint but still visible.

This

> was same humidity and same time of day and same area of skin..

[Guest guest]

Sharon, your data sounds relevant to our patch test research, even though you are not doing the Classic patch test of a 2" square. Would you be willing to add it to our database on Patch Test Results? Zoe

I've had the same experience painting tincture of iodine. At first it was gone in 4-5 hours, but not it lasts 12+. I never did the patch test because I am so sensitive to increasing iodine quickly that I never wanted to risk it - I have been painting for months and just recently have gotten up to the amount that would be in a 2" patch test.

[Guest guest]

Zoe,

Absolutely - will do shortly.

: )

s

>

> Sharon, your data sounds relevant to our patch test research, even

though you are not doing the Classic patch test of a 2 " square. Would

you be willing to add it to our database on Patch Test Results? Zoe

>

>

> I've had the same experience painting tincture of iodine. At first

it

> was gone in 4-5 hours, but not it lasts 12+. I never did the patch

> test because I am so sensitive to increasing iodine quickly that I

> never wanted to risk it - I have been painting for months and just

> recently have gotten up to the amount that would be in a 2 " patch

> test.

>