researchers

[Guest guest]

Hi Kent,

You may be quite right about research being outdated. Audiologists

often know what they knew when they took the final. There are ENTs out

there who don't realize that a CI can help sensory-neural hearing loss.

Now I'm not talking Joe Schmo walking down the street, but a Ear Nose and

Throat specialist who tells a patient that there is nothing that can be

done because they have sensory neural hearing loss. I'm sure some folks

who had this experience will chime in about it. Incredible.

I took a class in cued speech, but never found anyone around who used

it, so fell out of use. But are cuers oral for the most part? Because

what I was trying to get across is if you have an oral background, you

know a lot of words, and only have to put the sounds to them. Which in

itself is a task if you've never heard them. But folks with shorter

periods without hearing tend to have better results than those who wait

years for an implant.

As for Researchers being out of date, I have to differ with you on

that. I'm part of the ongoing study on Cochlear Implants at University

of Michigan. I go up several times a year and participate in studies to

determine how you hear and what you hear. The most recent was a week

long, and they took my map from my processor and took all the BEST areas

(largest dynamic range) and put them on one program. Then all the WORSE

areas (smallest dynamic range) and put them on one area. Then we tested.

One test was words where the first consonant was different, but the rest

of the word was the same. So it was sat, cat, chat, gnat, etc. While

it's easy to fill in missing words when you hear a sentence, it's

difficult doing that when it's just one word. And then try doing it with

only your worse areas being stimulated. Interesting research, and they

are still looking for volunteers to do it.

So folks are working round the clock to improve how we hear with an

implant. Especially important for the Asian languages which tend to be

tonal. Not a lot of words, but HOW you say the word changes the meaning.

Like Ma, mA, MA, etc. Depending on where you put the stress, it can

mean " mother " or " horse " or several other things. They all sounded

exactly the same to me, so imagine an entire language where the

intonation was the key to understanding.

Later,

The Original

From: Kent Trader <mekutochi@...>

Subject: Re: limits to CI

Hi ,

You should also include Cued Speech. It's QUITE COMMON that many cuers

have cochlear implants. Many researches fail to include cuers.

However, I do agree heartily with you that many factors including

language, technology, age of being implanted, et cetera can differentiate

the outcomes for each person.

I will repeat my responses to others, I was asking around. I was

little puzzled when my friend, who is an audiologist (not mine) and

professor, said few things that contradicted my ability and experience.

To have low expectation may be a good assumption, but I'll discuss these

issues with my friend when we get together soon.

Since you shared your assumption, my assumption is that many researches

are kind of outdated, don't you agree?

Kent

[Guest guest]

But are cuers oral for the most part?

Hi ,

That is a good question, and I understand your confusion. Cued Speech is used

to supplement with the lipreading skill. Many cuers that I've met are not

really oral, and have parents or family cue to them. If I talk or if a stranger

talk to them, they won't understand unfortunately. I know several cuers who

uses " Cuem, " and he relies heavily on the visual medium instead of phonetics.

This system isn't one of the oral methods.

Cuers are trained to look at the handshapes and movements along with some

facial expressions and some phonetics--this implies that they have some residual

hearing. Oralists are trained to look for context of the conversation, body

language, and facial expressions. I had a friend who is late-deafened, oral,

and signer, and she had a very hard time learning CS. We discussed our

observations and compared oral method and CS.

Since I got my implant last summer, I began to understand why many

late-deafened people and beginning-intermediate transliterators have hard time

with CS. It's the auditory AND visual processing. Two different processing are

" at conflict " with each other, and our brain are not capable of multitasking at

the same time. I find myself having a hard time listening, talking, and cueing

at the same time--that's three processing at once--and my brain was overloading.

I guess that I need more practice and training to improve my " auditory-visual

processing. " A best transliterator can't do both at the same time, so it's just

one or the other. It's different when we socialize because we are not really

paying attention to our cues.

I also met many cuers who have CI when they were little. They still have the

auditory-visual processing problems because they either just talk or just cue.

They just prefer to talk rather than to cue. It's kind of funny that their

parents used to cue to them when they were very little, so these implanted

friends cue poorly. My parents didn't cue at all when I was little, and I cue

fluently. Something that was brought to my attention a while ago by one of my

best transliterators.

Since I've got Freedom, I've become hard of hearing rather than oralist or

cuer. HOH people relies heavily on their residual hearing rather than context,

lips, and hands. I admit that I can not lipread without hearing the speech (I

lipread and hear speech for confirmation and vice versa). With or without cues,

I do not rely on facial expression or context. Cuers are really different from

signers, oralist, and HOH people.

I hope this clears up few things about CS,

Kent

--Mekutochi

Left Ear -- Cochlear Nucleus Freedom

Implanted: August 15, 2005

Activated: August 23, 2005

Right Ear -- Pending

---------------------------------

New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.

[Guest guest]

I know several cuers who uses " Cuem, " and he relies heavily on the visual medium

instead of phonetics.

haha... I can't think and type at all! I can't even multitask, and it's worse

when I'm tired. I happened to be thinking about one of my friends, so I

actually used " he " . Please let me clear that statement: I know several cuers

who use " Cuem, " and they rely heavily on the visual medium instead of phonetics.

:-)

Kent Trader <mekutochi@...> wrote:

But are cuers oral for the most part?

Hi ,

That is a good question, and I understand your confusion. Cued Speech is used

to supplement with the lipreading skill. Many cuers that I've met are not

really oral, and have parents or family cue to them. If I talk or if a stranger

talk to them, they won't understand unfortunately. I know several cuers who

uses " Cuem, " and he relies heavily on the visual medium instead of phonetics.

This system isn't one of the oral methods.

Cuers are trained to look at the handshapes and movements along with some

facial expressions and some phonetics--this implies that they have some residual

hearing. Oralists are trained to look for context of the conversation, body

language, and facial expressions. I had a friend who is late-deafened, oral,

and signer, and she had a very hard time learning CS. We discussed our

observations and compared oral method and CS.

Since I got my implant last summer, I began to understand why many

late-deafened people and beginning-intermediate transliterators have hard time

with CS. It's the auditory AND visual processing. Two different processing are

" at conflict " with each other, and our brain are not capable of multitasking at

the same time. I find myself having a hard time listening, talking, and cueing

at the same time--that's three processing at once--and my brain was overloading.

I guess that I need more practice and training to improve my " auditory-visual

processing. " A best transliterator can't do both at the same time, so it's just

one or the other. It's different when we socialize because we are not really

paying attention to our cues.

I also met many cuers who have CI when they were little. They still have the

auditory-visual processing problems because they either just talk or just cue.

They just prefer to talk rather than to cue. It's kind of funny that their

parents used to cue to them when they were very little, so these implanted

friends cue poorly. My parents didn't cue at all when I was little, and I cue

fluently. Something that was brought to my attention a while ago by one of my

best transliterators.

Since I've got Freedom, I've become hard of hearing rather than oralist or

cuer. HOH people relies heavily on their residual hearing rather than context,

lips, and hands. I admit that I can not lipread without hearing the speech (I

lipread and hear speech for confirmation and vice versa). With or without cues,

I do not rely on facial expression or context. Cuers are really different from

signers, oralist, and HOH people.

I hope this clears up few things about CS,

Kent

--Mekutochi

Left Ear -- Cochlear Nucleus Freedom

Implanted: August 15, 2005

Activated: August 23, 2005

Right Ear -- Pending

---------------------------------

New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.

[Guest guest]

Because what I was trying to get across is if you have an oral background, you

know a lot of words, and only have to put the sounds to them. Which in

itself is a task if you've never heard them. But folks with shorter

periods without hearing tend to have better results than those who wait

years for an implant.

Thanks for clearing this up, and I absolutely agree with you on this!

Kent

--Mekutochi

Left Ear -- Cochlear Nucleus Freedom

Implanted: August 15, 2005

Activated: August 23, 2005

Right Ear -- Pending

---------------------------------

Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using

Messenger with Voice.

[Guest guest]

Oh, I would love to volunteer and participate in studies!

Kent

M Jansen <nucleus24@...> wrote:

As for Researchers being out of date, I have to differ with you on

that. I'm part of the ongoing study on Cochlear Implants at University

of Michigan. I go up several times a year and participate in studies to

determine how you hear and what you hear. The most recent was a week

long, and they took my map from my processor and took all the BEST areas

(largest dynamic range) and put them on one program. Then all the WORSE

areas (smallest dynamic range) and put them on one area. Then we tested.

One test was words where the first consonant was different, but the rest

of the word was the same. So it was sat, cat, chat, gnat, etc. While

it's easy to fill in missing words when you hear a sentence, it's

difficult doing that when it's just one word. And then try doing it with

only your worse areas being stimulated. Interesting research, and they

are still looking for volunteers to do it.

--Mekutochi

Left Ear -- Cochlear Nucleus Freedom

Implanted: August 15, 2005

Activated: August 23, 2005

Right Ear -- Pending

---------------------------------

Talk is cheap. Use Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates

starting at 1 & cent;/min.

[Guest guest]

,

I promise you that this will be the last response to your previous email. I

wanted all my responses to be clear and specific to your numerous, important

parts.

Anyway, I can easily understand what you are saying about intonation. I have

been working on this with my speech pathologist. It is interesting that having

Freedom makes me very sensitive to the stress part, and it sometimes throws me

off. I find myself wondering why she would say like that?

You have great responses,

Kent

M Jansen <nucleus24@...> wrote:

So folks are working round the clock to improve how we hear with an

implant. Especially important for the Asian languages which tend to be

tonal. Not a lot of words, but HOW you say the word changes the meaning.

Like Ma, mA, MA, etc. Depending on where you put the stress, it can

mean " mother " or " horse " or several other things. They all sounded

exactly the same to me, so imagine an entire language where the

intonation was the key to understanding.

--Mekutochi

Left Ear -- Cochlear Nucleus Freedom

Implanted: August 15, 2005

Activated: August 23, 2005

Right Ear -- Pending

---------------------------------

Talk is cheap. Use Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates

starting at 1 & cent;/min.

[Guest guest]

>>It's the auditory AND visual processing. Two different processing are " at

conflict " with each other, and our brain are not capable of multitasking at

the same time.<<

Kent,

I beg to differ.

For a few years prior to the time I lost what little speech discrimination

in my right ear I used a tactile sign language interpreter (for the

deafblind) and an FM system simultaneously. I had no problem whatsoever

separating the auditory input I received through the FM system and the

tactile information I received through my interpreter. In fact, this was the

communication method I preferred since it enabled me to receive the contents

of a message in two forms so that if I could not understand what was said

through my FM system, I could understand through tactile sign and

vice-versa.

Unfortunately, there are many people who think the brain is not capable of

taking in two forms of communication at the same time. Even some students I

know in interpreter programs express surprise at my ability to understand

and comprehend a message using both my residual hearing and tactile sign

(pre-CI).

As with CIs, we all are different in our ability to process language, but to

make a general blanket statement that the brain is incapable of multitasking

is incorrect since it has and *can* be done.

Don't sell yourself short! While it may not be easy to incorporate a visual

and auditory (or in my case auditory and tactile) mode of communication, it

isn't impossible!

Left ear - Nucleus 24 Contour Advance with 3G

Implanted: 12/22/04 Activated: 1/18/05

Right ear - Nucleus Freedom

Implanted: 2/1/06 Activated: 3/1/06

[Guest guest]

Tactile sign language is different from Cued Speech. TSL is based on concepts

while CS is based on phonetics. I have easier time talking and signing at the

same time than I can talk and cue at the same time. When we sign, we are not

signing word for word. When we cue, we cue sound for sound. It's very tasking.

Kent

Kozlik <lisak70@...> wrote:

>>It's the auditory AND visual processing. Two different processing are " at

conflict " with each other, and our brain are not capable of multitasking at

the same time.<<

Kent,

I beg to differ.

For a few years prior to the time I lost what little speech discrimination

in my right ear I used a tactile sign language interpreter (for the

deafblind) and an FM system simultaneously. I had no problem whatsoever

separating the auditory input I received through the FM system and the

tactile information I received through my interpreter. In fact, this was the

communication method I preferred since it enabled me to receive the contents

of a message in two forms so that if I could not understand what was said

through my FM system, I could understand through tactile sign and

vice-versa.

Unfortunately, there are many people who think the brain is not capable of

taking in two forms of communication at the same time. Even some students I

know in interpreter programs express surprise at my ability to understand

and comprehend a message using both my residual hearing and tactile sign

(pre-CI).

As with CIs, we all are different in our ability to process language, but to

make a general blanket statement that the brain is incapable of multitasking

is incorrect since it has and *can* be done.

Don't sell yourself short! While it may not be easy to incorporate a visual

and auditory (or in my case auditory and tactile) mode of communication, it

isn't impossible!

Left ear - Nucleus 24 Contour Advance with 3G

Implanted: 12/22/04 Activated: 1/18/05

Right ear - Nucleus Freedom

Implanted: 2/1/06 Activated: 3/1/06

[Guest guest]

Don't sell yourself short! While it may not be easy to incorporate a visual

and auditory (or in my case auditory and tactile) mode of communication, it

isn't impossible!

,

I agree with your statement above. I am attending trainings to make few

corrections on my cues, so that they will incorporate smoothly with listening

and talking.

Kent

--Mekutochi

Left Ear -- Cochlear Nucleus Freedom

Implanted: August 15, 2005

Activated: August 23, 2005

Right Ear -- Pending

---------------------------------

Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using

Messenger with Voice.

[Guest guest]

Kent.

I'm aware of the differences between tactile sign and cued speech. If

someone uses Signed Exact English (SEE) in tactile form, it wouldn't be much

different than cued speech -- and I do know of several deafblind people who

have used SEE in conjunction with an FM system. If your point was that

trying to concentrate on two different modes of communication can be taxing,

that I agree with -- but I don't think it's impossible.

Left ear - Nucleus 24 Contour Advance with 3G

Implanted: 12/22/04 Activated: 1/18/05

Right ear - Nucleus Freedom

Implanted: 2/1/06 Activated: 3/1/06

[Guest guest]

Hi again,

I can't really comment on Signed Exact English even though I have seen it used

occasionally. Because I know little about it, I should not criticize it.

We agree that trying to focus on two modes of communication can be taxing, and

it isn't impossible to master.

Does it ever occur to you that there is a movement for the Auditory Verbal

practice or AVT?

Kent

Kozlik <lisak70@...> wrote:

If your point was that trying to concentrate on two different modes of

communication can be taxing, that I agree with -- but I don't think it's

impossible.

--Mekutochi

Left Ear -- Cochlear Nucleus Freedom

Implanted: August 15, 2005

Activated: August 23, 2005

Right Ear -- Pending

---------------------------------

New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.