Re: midgets with shotguns redux

[Guest guest]

I'm not gonna get into my opinion on being PC or how far that's been

periodically taken to an extreme, but I did want to comment on one thing:

Maybe this is just me, but I don't overreact when someone says midgets and

they don't really really mean it maliciously (if it's ignorance, in other

words or they honestly don't know). Because to me, it doesn't bother bother

me, I just don't like it (see the difference?)

OK, we may be the laughing material for some (i.e. Kimmel), but we have to

ask ourselves why that is? It's my opinion, that the more someone reacts to

something in a really really obvious way (in other words, launching boycotts

every time midget is used in any context), the more the firing agency is

just going to fire back. We need to educate, but we also don't need to

over-react every single time, either. (It doesn't help)

[Guest guest]

I have to beg to differ here. I think Davey did the absolutely correct

thing. This IS the way to handle the situation if it upsets you. Most

usage of the word midget comes from ignorance and not prejudice. The way to

overcome ignorance is to educate. That Davey took it upon himself to do so,

and in a civilized manner, deserves some props.

Also, and I'm not trying to flame you , because I do like you, I think

this criticism of yours (and Danny Black's) is born more out of personal

feelings about Davey rather than actual rational thought. Even one's

biggest adversaries deserves praise when they do the right thing, setting

personal feelings aside. And we all know Danny Black's position on the word

" midget. " Great, it doesn't bother him and he sees it as a means to make a

profit. More power to him. It personally doesn't bother me now either. I

used to cringe, but have developed a thick skin in my old age. However, by

the mere fact that it DOES bother many LPs (perhaps the majority) I choose

not to use the word. This is not " political correctness " but " good

manners. " Call me old-fashioned, but I still think politeness and respect

are virtues.

Bill Bradford

On 6/22/06, Rapert <rrapert@...> wrote:

>

> I'm not gonna get into my opinion on being PC or how far that's been

> periodically taken to an extreme, but I did want to comment on one thing:

>

> Maybe this is just me, but I don't overreact when someone says midgets and

> they don't really really mean it maliciously (if it's ignorance, in other

> words or they honestly don't know). Because to me, it doesn't bother

> bother

> me, I just don't like it (see the difference?)

>

> OK, we may be the laughing material for some (i.e. Kimmel), but we have to

> ask ourselves why that is? It's my opinion, that the more someone reacts

> to

> something in a really really obvious way (in other words, launching

> boycotts

> every time midget is used in any context), the more the firing agency is

> just going to fire back. We need to educate, but we also don't need to

> over-react every single time, either. (It doesn't help)

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't know Danny, what IS your position on the word " midget? " I have yet

to read any clear statement on this except for what is printed on your

shirts, which you sell for profit. Personally, I could really give a rip.

Do what you want with your shirts. (BTW, if you wanted to make more money,

hire me to write some shirts for you. I'm far funnier.)

No, I don't think I was the brother you are referring to. I know there are

THREE of us, but is it really that hard to sort us out? Once again, there's

Randy, Dave, and Bill. I'm Bill. I always sign my name (as do my brothers)

so it shouldn't be that hard to sort us out.

Also, I'm confused by the " my " and " we " in your email. Is this a case of

multiple personality disorder or the usage of the Royal " We " ?

In any case, I'm sure " we " don't have to worry too much about stepping out

of line. Unless, of course, " we " tick off the hotel staff again.

BILL BRADFORD (the other one)

On 6/24/06, shortdwarf.com <1.866.U.midget@...> wrote:

>

> At 02:31 PM 6/24/2006, you wrote:

>

> I have to beg to differ here. I think Davey did the absolutely correct

> thing. This IS the way to handle the situation if it upsets you. Most

> usage of the word midget comes from ignorance and not prejudice. The way

> to

> overcome ignorance is to educate. That Davey took it upon himself to do

> so,

> and in a civilized manner, deserves some props.

>

> Also, and I'm not trying to flame you , because I do like you, I think

> this criticism of yours (and Danny Black's) is born more out of personal

> feelings about Davey rather than actual rational thought. Even one's

> biggest adversaries deserves praise when they do the right thing, setting

> personal feelings aside. And we all know Danny Black's position on the

> word

> " midget. " Great, it doesn't bother him and he sees it as a means to make a

> profit. More power to him. It personally doesn't bother me now either. I

> used to cringe, but have developed a thick skin in my old age. However, by

> the mere fact that it DOES bother many LPs (perhaps the majority) I choose

> not to use the word. This is not " political correctness " but " good

> manners. " Call me old-fashioned, but I still think politeness and respect

> are virtues.

>

> Bill Bradford

>

>

> bill,

>

> we would welcome you to share with me on what you might think my position

> on the word " midget " is.. feel free to elaborate even more than what you've

> done above. what you think my position is and what it actually is may be

> two different things.

>

> P. S. are you the brother that shared with the listserv 4 years ago the

> existence of the " midget petting zoo " shirt? can't thank you enough if you

> were.

>

> hope to see you in milwaukee. we'll be the one that amy & everyone else

> will be keeping their eyes on for the first time we step out of line.

>

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[Guest guest]

>

> you probably are far funnier. you've entertained us many at time here on

> the list along with Davey, , Matt and others too numerous to

> mentioned. we welcome you to become a t-shirt vendor @ expo, on stage

> humorist / stand up comic along with lee, etc. to us, a truer test of

> humor's worth is out in the real retail world, not idle chat & offers.

>

> Uh...Danny? I've been on stage numerous times as a humorist/stand up

comic. I am also a professional writer and member of the Writer's Guild of

America, and have won several awards as a playwright and screenwriter. I

have also won awards from the Society of Professional Journalists for a

weekly satire column. Not to toot my own horn, but I have " real retail "

credentials. Here's an interesting news article about the S.F. conference

and my stand up routine.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/07/03/MNG\

B57GEDC1.DTL

Bill

[Guest guest]

There seems to be a dichotomy between what we, in the dwarf world know and

understand about the difference between " Dwarf " and " Midget " and what the

outside world seems to understand.

Within the dwarfism world, we seem to see the word 'midget' as some sort of

pariah, never ever to be allowed to emanate from the lips of any self

respecting dwarf.

Why? Because, according to the justifiably respected encyclopaedia on

dwarfism - Dan's book, the word 'midget' is a relatively new word,

invented/coined by Barnum and for their circus little folks.

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In the big wide, outside world, I have only ever met

people who, wishing to discuss my 'disposition' and that of my peers world

wide, always, without exception, tell me THEY understand the difference

between dwarf and midget to be:- dwarf - disproportionate small person....

midget - proportionate small person.

Now, for my money, what the outside world thinks is far, far, more important

than that branch of thinking which causes so much disharmony within our own

world! In my experience, the outside world is not using either word to any

greater or lesser degree of descriptiveness of the other.

HOWEVER, several times I have been asked if I AM a dwarf. Each time, a well

meaning question asked out of nothing more than ignorance of the fact. Each

time I explain, yes, I suppose I am a dwarf, if a label is needed, but I see

no need for labels, I am ME, I am a person, the same as they are.

THIS, seems to compute with them. They nod their understanding, and that is

usually the end of the conversation. I consider I have done my bit towards

greater awareness within society, and at least one more member of that

society is better educated and with a greater understanding, which forms the

basis for renewed respect.

Fred, about to dismount his disproportionate carcass from his soap box.

[Guest guest]

Bill et.al.,

OK, I did probably go over the top on this, but what I was more referring to

(in a general sense) was how any time anymore anyone even out of simply not

knowing uses the word midget, we create a war against it on this list that

lasts a really long time. I'm not at all saying we should say whatever we

want to (freedom of speech working both ways, I know), but sometimes we

complain more often than necessary (in other words, when someone, for

example, that sees us in a store asks the question " are you a midget? " I

mean yes, we educate them, but we shouldn't let that usage bother us).

Good manners are one thing, which I will freely admit Davey used. Jumping

down someone's throat though (not what Davey did, I now realize), is

actually about as rude as the person who made the possibly unintentional

remark.

One more example: Don't ask the context or what possessed him to do this,

but at our youth gathering here a couple months ago, the pastor went to

bless the elements and said, and I quote " these are like frisbees for

midgets (referring to the wafers) " . Now, there are three possible reactions

I could have taken here:

1. Jump up there and yell at him in front of the youth gathering

2. Say something to him after it was over

3. Say nothing at all and just chalk it up to ignorance

I didn't confront him per se, but we (the staff of the gathering) did let

him know he said it and it wasn't probably the best thing to say. That's

what we should do. But throwing a screaming fit (whether literal or

figurative) instead of quietly straightening it out and educating one-on-one

with the person who made the remark, is what actually bugs me more than the

use of the word in the first place. One's ignorance is no excuse for the

other's rudeness.

So yes, Davey, I do apologize for getting on you about how you handled

it...but that I don't think (and I know we're not dealing with this on the

lawyers' issue) we need to badmouth the person who used it without

confronting them first. Hope that made sense.

[Guest guest]

Oh my gosh!!!

LOOK some people hate the term midget and some people

don't care. Some people handle it one way and some

handle it another way.

Some people can't stand Danny Black and some people

like him.

WHY does there have to be a week long debate going on

this????

Blah blah blah shut up shut up shut up blah blah!!!!!

Can we pllllleeeeeeasssseee move on??????

Let's think of happy thoughts like the conference

happening next weekend!!!

-

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I have long wrestled with the various names given to me, crippled,

handicap, disabled, physically challenged, differently abled, and the

list goes on and on. Which is not unlike the midget versus dwarf. I

personally consider the source before I respond to something. When the

words are written it is difficult to get the tone from them, however

when the words are spoken the intonation is often quite clear. If I hear

someone use the term " physically challenged " and from their tone it is

obvious they are being sincere, then I have no problem with that term.

Yes, I cannot stand that term. Personally I'd rather be known as a crip,

but that is another story. I would have to ask if this person who used

the term midget knew what he was doing? Did he use it in a derogatory

way? It should be quite possible to discern from his speech his

intention in using that term. If for him, that is the term he knows for

a little person, then how is he using it in a derogatory manner? There

has been discussions on here about comedians who use the term. They may

well be using it intentionally in a derogatory manner. In that case, I

would probably find it offensive. In short, I don't find words in and of

themselves offensive, it is the use of the words that I find offensive.

Just my two cents worth,

Tom

Fred Short wrote:

> There seems to be a dichotomy between what we, in the dwarf world know

> and

> understand about the difference between " Dwarf " and " Midget " and what the

> outside world seems to understand.

>

> Within the dwarfism world, we seem to see the word 'midget' as some

> sort of

> pariah, never ever to be allowed to emanate from the lips of any self

> respecting dwarf.

>

> Why? Because, according to the justifiably respected encyclopaedia on

> dwarfism - Dan's book, the word 'midget' is a relatively new word,

> invented/coined by Barnum and for their circus little folks.

>

> BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In the big wide, outside world, I have only ever met

> people who, wishing to discuss my 'disposition' and that of my peers

> world

> wide, always, without exception, tell me THEY understand the difference

> between dwarf and midget to be:- dwarf - disproportionate small

> person....

> midget - proportionate small person.

>

> Now, for my money, what the outside world thinks is far, far, more

> important

> than that branch of thinking which causes so much disharmony within

> our own

> world! In my experience, the outside world is not using either word to

> any

> greater or lesser degree of descriptiveness of the other.

>

> HOWEVER, several times I have been asked if I AM a dwarf. Each time, a

> well

> meaning question asked out of nothing more than ignorance of the fact.

> Each

> time I explain, yes, I suppose I am a dwarf, if a label is needed, but

> I see

> no need for labels, I am ME, I am a person, the same as they are.

>

> THIS, seems to compute with them. They nod their understanding, and

> that is

> usually the end of the conversation. I consider I have done my bit

> towards

> greater awareness within society, and at least one more member of that

> society is better educated and with a greater understanding, which

> forms the

> basis for renewed respect.

>

> Fred, about to dismount his disproportionate carcass from his soap box.

>

> _

>

[Guest guest]

Often times people ask me " what is politically correct? I know it's

not midget But I don't know what word to use! " I encourage people

not to worry too much about words and labeling. As you know most

people with dwarfism prefer " Dwarf " or " Little Person " and " Short

Stature " " . And of course " Midget " is offensive to MANY people with

dwarfism.

Personally, I prefer a different way of addressing such situations

as labeling. I work for a non-profit disability organization for

people with disabilities. One of the things I've learned here was

that there is a " system " (for a lack of a better word)

called " People First Language " .

This is very handy in many areas of my life. For an example, instead

of saying Wheelchair Bound, we would say a Person who uses a

wheelchair. Instead of Dwarf, I use Person with Dwarfism. It

eliminates the labeling, but still allows room to explain the

situation and still respect that we are recognizing the Person as an

individual first!

If you want to learn more about this different way of speaking and

train of thought, there is a wonderful website that really expresses

this very well. It is called http://www.disabilityisnatural.com

I would encourage anyone to look it up.

Please keep in mind that labels and terminology often change people

cannot keep up, especially the general public and the media.

With this particular model, people would not ever need to worry

about what the new terminologies are " this year " and accidentally

say the wrong thing! MOST people are not out to offend others and

feel like they are walking on eggshells when talking.

Before I never understood why the word Disabled was offensive to

some people. So I asked my co-worker. She has a wonderful way of not

making me feel guilty of using this word in the past and is able to

explain it so I feel empowered with my new knowledge.

She explained that when the word " Disabled " is used, it often times

means, the disabled car on the side of the road or a disabled

computer that just sits there. When something is disabled, it can't

do anything! But a person who has a disability is never

fully " disabled " in these terms or DEFINITION.

Most of the time, people prefer their name, no matter what

disability, nationality, sexual orientation, religion, or any life

situation they may be in. )

a

>

> I have long wrestled with the various names given to me, crippled,

> handicap, disabled, physically challenged, differently abled, and

the

> list goes on and on. Which is not unlike the midget versus dwarf.

I

> personally consider the source before I respond to something. When

the

> words are written it is difficult to get the tone from them,

however

> when the words are spoken the intonation is often quite clear. If

I hear

> someone use the term " physically challenged " and from their tone

it is

> obvious they are being sincere, then I have no problem with that

term.

> Yes, I cannot stand that term. Personally I'd rather be known as a

crip,

> but that is another story. I would have to ask if this person who

used

> the term midget knew what he was doing? Did he use it in a

derogatory

> way? It should be quite possible to discern from his speech his

> intention in using that term. If for him, that is the term he

knows for

> a little person, then how is he using it in a derogatory manner?

There

> has been discussions on here about comedians who use the term.

They may

> well be using it intentionally in a derogatory manner. In that

case, I

> would probably find it offensive. In short, I don't find words in

and of

> themselves offensive, it is the use of the words that I find

offensive.

>

> Just my two cents worth,

> Tom

>