Guest guest Posted July 23, 2002 Report Share Posted July 23, 2002 Mel, Great study, and surely bad news for those who think that manipulation does what it is they claim it does. I stopped coercing patients with my hands years ago for the following reason: f Threlkeld, PhD. P.T. studied the effect of manual care in the aptly titled essay The Effects of Manual Therapy on Connective Tissue (Physical Therapy Volume 72, Number 12/December 1992). Please note that this reference is the Journal of the American Physical Therapy Association. After a prolonged discussion of connective tissue (CT) properties (including fascia, of course), Threlkeld concludes, “ If 100% of an externally applied force could be transmitted to a selected portion of a connective tissue structure, then it could be presumed that forces commonly produced during manual therapy could produce permanent elongation…the external forces, however, are not direct and are not completely transmitted to a preselected segment of a CT structure.” He goes on to describe the dispersal of manual force inherent to our body’s reaction to pressure. Threlkeld points out that there is no evidence that manual force results in connective tissue elongation that is prolonged or therapeutic. If pushing doesn’t permanently elongate connective tissue (except perhaps injuriously), why push with this in mind? I am not advocating not touching at all because deforming the skin is another matter and made lead us toward reflexive reactions that have been shown to be far more enduring and profound. I’d love to hear what the chiropractic community has to say about this study. Barrett L. Dorko, P.T. Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio <http://barrettdorko.com> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2002 Report Share Posted July 24, 2002 Barrett - that study was alluding to the finding that there is no ligamentous changes with manipulation of the thoracic spine. My question was concerning your reference, specifically to the chiropractors, that this study somehow disproves what we do. It is, as usual, an " attack " . Why so much disdain for a profession. Some PTs are glad to learn how to manipulate the spine and rationalize it's effects, or are they looking for another avenue for revenue? [i cannot find where the researchers concerned conducted any personal attack on chiropractic - their study very clearly referred to anyone who therapeutically manipulates the spine, including chiropractors. As a matter of fact, some of the most prominent work done in the field of spinal manipulation and mobilisation has been done by physiotherapists such as Maitland, so that they should feel equally offended about that article. Mel Siff] Getting back to the question at hand, Dr Siff alluded to how just touching the skin and it's mechanoreceptors can influence the nervous system therapuetically. Why is so hard to accept manipulation of the spinal tissues can also cause a change in nerve impulses in a therapuetic manner. [For a start because it requires a lot more than anecdote to validate any belief that mechanical handling of soft tissue will " cause a change in nerve impulses " , which are electrical processes. Furthermore, even if some mechanical force actually does happen to influence electrical processes in neural tissue, how can we demonstrate that these changes necessarily will be beneficial and not detrimental to health? By the way, my comment applied to the well-known processes of proprioception and reflex action, not to any esoteric movement of nerves or spinal tissues. In short I was simply asking to see some non-placebo evidence which validates the routine use of spinal manipulation. Over to you for some suitable references! Mel Siff] As far as the Art ?, the practice of medicine involves an art, or am I as a chiropractor not allowed to use the word art and science together? Why so you scientists have such a hard time with us practioneers practicing our art? Ethereal art from writtings 100 years ago? Do you think Chiropractic as a profession has not progressed from it's original thinking? We do not believe we can cure any disease. We do believe that we can help people improve their fitness. Improving fitness will increase defense against injury and illness. Fitness as it relates to there ability to move more freely. Sometimes it's the simplicity that confuses many. Parks,DC Phx, AZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2002 Report Share Posted August 22, 2002 Mr. Dorko -- I see you are asking for or challenging the chiropractic profession for an answer to this study. I am giving you a knee-jerk response. That is, I have read your post one time and not studied it deeply. First, who is saying that this is what chiropractic procedures try to do? Chiropractic is about removing neurological interferences. Interference is the result of some form of tresspass, anatomically, that is impinging nerve tissue. When this condition is present and how it is handled, is up to the individual practioneer. The Art of manipulation is included along with the science. I know the questions that will be shot out from what I just said. I seek knowledge, however, I have the right to believe in what makes sense to me. Maybe I can not explain what happens on a physiological or anatomical bases and/or be sure 100%. I do know that, human beings report and show definite improvement in there life. [i think that Barrett Dorko was more interested in seeing if any chiropractors could furnish scientific or clinical references to validate manipulation, with special reference to the study which I quoted earlier. Mel Siff] First rule: do no harm R. Parks, DC Phx, AZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2002 Report Share Posted August 22, 2002 Mr. Dorko -- I see you are asking for or challenging the chiropractic profession for an answer to this study. I am giving you a knee-jerk response. That is, I have read your post one time and not studied it deeply. First, who is saying that this is what chiropractic procedures try to do? Chiropractic is about removing neurological interferences. Interference is the result of some form of tresspass, anatomically, that is impinging nerve tissue. When this condition is present and how it is handled, is up to the individual practioneer. The Art of manipulation is included along with the science. I know the questions that will be shot out from what I just said. I seek knowledge, however, I have the right to believe in what makes sense to me. Maybe I can not explain what happens on a physiological or anatomical bases and/or be sure 100%. I do know that, human beings report and show definite improvement in there life. [i think that Barrett Dorko was more interested in seeing if any chiropractors could furnish scientific or clinical references to validate manipulation, with special reference to the study which I quoted earlier. Mel Siff] First rule: do no harm R. Parks, DC Phx, AZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Hi Tina, The ARE has a list of healthcare professionals by state: http://www.edgarcayce.org/health/cayce_professionls_listI_T.asp Warmly, Barbara Barbara Finch Feng Shui & Chinese Astrology http://www.finchshui.com Venus Rising Designs Jewelry http://www.venusrisingdesigns.com 301-946-0108 There are many paths to enlightenment. Be sure to take one with a heart. - Lao Tzu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Thanks Barbera.I think,the nearest one to me is in Chicago,about 3.5 hour drive from me.I may,see,if I can get the chiropractor,I`ve been working with to go by the Cayce Readings>She said she has heard of him.So far,i`ve had no luck,getting my son to lay down on the table.He will let her do some things,while he is sitting.Maybe the use of the radial device,and some massage oils,will get him,to where he will cooperate better.Tina > > > The ARE has a list of healthcare professionals by state: > > http://www.edgarcayce.org/health/cayce_professionls_listI_T.asp > > Warmly, > Barbara > > Barbara Finch Feng Shui & Chinese Astrology http://www.finchshui.com > Venus Rising Designs Jewelry http://www.venusrisingdesigns.com > 301-946-0108 > > There are many paths to enlightenment. Be sure to take one with a heart. - > Lao Tzu > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Hi, I've worked with a  lot of chiropractors --  Michighan has a lot of chiropractors --  you just need to visit a number of them and ask if they study Cayce --  Many chiropractors are maverick in nature and very interested in helping their patients in anyway they can --  I have several friends here in Virginia who are chiropractors and also study cayce --  they're out there -- you just need to keep looking, julie Thanks Barbera.I think,the nearest one to me is in Chicago,about 3.5 hour drive from me.I may,see,if I can get the chiropractor,I`ve been working with to go by the Cayce Readings>She said she has heard of him.So far,i`ve had no luck,getting my son to lay down on the table.He will let her do some things,while he is sitting.Maybe the use of the radial device,and some massage oils,will get him,to where he will cooperate better.Tina  , CMT Healing Touch Therapeutic Massage 8605 Sudley Rd Manassas, Va 20110 703-530-0100 Re: Spinal Manipulation Thanks Barbera.I think,the nearest one to me is in Chicago,about 3.5 hour drive from me.I may,see,if I can get the chiropractor,I`ve been working with to go by the Cayce Readings>She said she has heard of him.So far,i`ve had no luck,getting my son to lay down on the table.He will let her do some things,while he is sitting.Maybe the use of the radial device,and some massage oils,will get him,to where he will cooperate better.Tina > > > The ARE has a list of healthcare professionals by state: > > http://www.edgarcayce.org/health/cayce_professionls_listI_T.asp > > Warmly, > Barbara > > Barbara Finch Feng Shui & Chinese Astrology http://www.finchshui.com > Venus Rising Designs Jewelry http://www.venusrisingdesigns.com > 301-946-0108 > > There are many paths to enlightenment. Be sure to take one with a heart. - > Lao Tzu > 0A A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Hi Tina, One more thing about chiropractors. My chiropractor in Glendale Heights, Illinois is not listed on the Cayce health care providers website; however, I have taken readings to him several times (including my very first visit to him 25 years ago). He has always had an open mind about looking at what the readings say. Perhaps you could try to find one in your locality willing to do the same. Cheers, Robin Re: Spinal Manipulation Thanks Barbera.I think,the nearest one to me is in Chicago,about 3.5 hour drive from me.I may,see,if I can get the chiropractor,I`ve been working with to go by the Cayce Readings>She said she has heard of him.So far,i`ve had no luck,getting my son to lay down on the table.He will let her do some things,while he is sitting.Maybe the use of the radial device,and some massage oils,will get him,to where he will cooperate better.Tina > > > The ARE has a list of healthcare professionals by state: > > http://www.edgarcayce.org/health/cayce_professionls_listI_T.asp > > Warmly, > Barbara > > Barbara Finch Feng Shui & Chinese Astrology http://www.finchshui.com > Venus Rising Designs Jewelry http://www.venusrisingdesigns.com > 301-946-0108 > > There are many paths to enlightenment. Be sure to take one with a heart. - > Lao Tzu > ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009  Hi Tina, >Thanks Barbera.I think,the nearest one to me is in Chicago,about 3.5 hour drive from me.I may,see,if I can get the chiropractor,I`ve been working with to go by the Cayce Readings>She said she has heard of him.So far,i`ve had no luck,getting my son to lay down on the table.He will let her do some things,while he is sitting.Maybe the use of the radial device,and some massage oils,will get him,to where he will cooperate better.Tina Be persistent in finding the practitioners you want, and who may have experience dealing with your child's issues. You might check with the other non-chiro Cayce practitioners listed in and around your state. I would think that many Cayce practitioners know of others, although those others may not necessarily advertise it. Cayce wasn't a licensed health practitioner and we have a very litigious culture, so there may be some reluctance to say one uses his techniques publicly. Warmly,BarbaraBarbara Finch Feng Shui & Chinese Astrology http://www.finchshui.com Venus Rising Designs Jewelry http://www.venusrisingdesigns.com301-946-0108 There are many paths to enlightenment. Be sure to take one with a heart. - Lao Tzu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Hi there, Recently I tried this on the recommendation of a friend who had great results from it. I've been for 2 sessions now & have felt horrible afterwards. The 1st time, I had diarrhea the next day, tho i really dont know if it is the manipulation or just diarrhea from the diet. Yesterday i went for my 2nd session & I feel like I've just been hit by a truck. My body hurts & my tummy hurts. The doctor says that its because of releasing toxins from my liver coz he does some kind of liver release or something like that. So he recommended me a homeopathic remedy called LVR, which I didnt take. Anyway, just wondering if any of u have tried this & has it helped. thanks Shirin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Hi Shirin, Yes, it sounds to me like toxins have been released. I've had this happen after a chiropractic adjustment as well. I felt like I was hit by a truck and that my whole body was a bruise. You might want to try taking an epsom salt bath. I've also tried getting my husband to massage the worst spots with coconut oil mixed with a few drops of oil of oregano. Sniffing the oil of oregano from the bottle also helped. > > Hi there, > <snip> > I've been for 2 sessions now & have felt horrible afterwards. The 1st time, I had diarrhea the next day, tho i really dont know if it is the manipulation or just diarrhea from the diet. Yesterday i went for my 2nd session & I feel like I've just been hit by a truck. My body hurts & my tummy hurts. <snip> > > Anyway, just wondering if any of u have tried this & has it helped. > > thanks > Shirin > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Thanks , Forgot about the oil of oregano. Will do that now. Shirin > > > > Hi there, > > > <snip> > > I've been for 2 sessions now & have felt horrible afterwards. The > 1st time, I had diarrhea the next day, tho i really dont know if it is > the manipulation or just diarrhea from the diet. Yesterday i went for > my 2nd session & I feel like I've just been hit by a truck. My body > hurts & my tummy hurts. <snip> > > > > Anyway, just wondering if any of u have tried this & has it helped. > > > > thanks > > Shirin > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 > > Hi there, > > Recently I tried this on the recommendation of a friend who had great > results from it. > > I've been for 2 sessions now & have felt horrible afterwards. The 1st > time, I had diarrhea the next day, tho i really dont know if it is the > manipulation or just diarrhea from the diet. Yesterday i went for my > 2nd session & I feel like I've just been hit by a truck. My body hurts > & my tummy hurts. The doctor says that its because of releasing toxins > from my liver coz he does some kind of liver release or something like > that. So he recommended me a homeopathic remedy called LVR, which I > didnt take. > > Anyway, just wondering if any of u have tried this & has it helped. +++Hi Shirin. Sometimes treatments like that can cause more problems than they are worth, since the body itself can re-align its spine without manual adjustments. That is because it gets the nutrients it requires to strengthen muscles, reconstruct all cells in the body, etc. - I think it is better to allow the diet and supplements to do their job, rather than such treatments. Bee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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