My son is 19 year old and his weight is only 30 kg. ,he recently diagnose MNGIE ,at present he can drive car and good in study, but i am worried about his future health, so any one please suggest me how we can stop progression of disease or any new treatment for MNGIE, he is taking CO q10-100 mg. one tab daily only.

Hello, My name is Ani and I am 9 years out from open rny surgery. My

beginning weight was 486.5 lb. I now weigh 221. I experienced a weight

gain over the last l and 1/2 years

of 42 lb. I have now lost that gain and a couple extra lbs. My surgery was

not easy, I suffered complications that kept me in the hospital 4 months and

then a nursing home 13 more months. If I had to do it over again, I would

do it in a flat second. Life is good, and I feel so very much better.

Ani

open rny

486.5/221/and still working

justice...we are just all gorgeous people...LOL! And the Sheriff doesn't

have a lobster growing out of his neck as the picture might suggest! HEE

HEE!

Regards~

Jacque

I received a secret photo of the sheriff, but I may have surgery out there

in

Seattle just for a walk with the sheriff. Smile

PS I am not telling you the name of the LADY who sent the pics. All of you

at the get together look great. Made me smile.

Fay Bayuk

**300/168

10/23/01

Dr.

Open RNY 150 cm

know there was such a thing, & would have never, ever considered it.

Let alone thought of it affecting my sex life. Wait til hubby hears

this. LOL

Boy, I love this group. I learn so much.

Lorraine

> In a message dated 11/29/03 1:50:05 PM Central Standard Time,

Mylou52@a...

> writes:

>

> > I have read a lot about ladies receiving a " hoochie " lift as

well. Is this

> > something I need to discuss with my plastic surgeon. Truthfully,

I don't

> > see any drooping there but who knows after the stomach is flat.

Do they shave

> > you for this?

> ------

>

> Absolutely discuss this with your plastic surgeon. Many

feel that it

> part of the procedure and will automatically " pull up " there while

they " pull

> down " on the abdomen. Other docs couldn't care less about that

area. (My PS

> was appalled when I asked her if it would be addressed -- she said

OF COURSE

> -- she wouldn't dream of leaving it hanging!-- but I have heard of

many women,

> who after they have a nice flat tummy end up looking like they are

packing a

> pair of rolled up socks in their panties).

> Chances are, you ARE drooping -- you may just not know where

it really

> does belong! One plastic surgeon in our area responded to a friend

of mine,

> who upon seeing " after " photos and remarked that they seemed

so " high " --(with

> a laugh): I bet you have never SEEN one where it's supposed to be!

> I did not need to shave pre-op for this part of the tummy

tuck. My PS

> said she would just shave whatever was necessary while she was

working.

> I would definitely recommend getting the " hoochie " pulled

up -- it

> makes a world of difference (at least in my experience) in your sex

life. When

> the parts fit together as they were intended to, thing really rock

and roll!

>

> Beth

> Houston, TX

> VBG - Dr. Srungaram

> 05/31/00 - 314 lbs.

> 11/01/02 - Abdominoplasty

> 11/29/02 - 160 lbs.

> 5'10 "

>

>

>

live each day like it's your last... love like you've never

been hurt...

Deb in Hazlet, NJ

" Debbie Dancer "

distal rny

September 3, 2002

386/221/165

BMI 60/32.6/24

-165

-92.5 "

Angel to Bill, Debbie, Ilene, Roy, and Ro

where I am employed. After completely blowing it on Christmas I thought for

sure New Years would be a different story. Yea RIGHT! I am 1 year and 3

months out....have gone from 334 to around 160-165.....it fluctuattes....and

have

been stuck around there since about month 10. I am so much healthier and life

is so much better, I can't even explain. What scares me is this.....

I have been soooo disciplined with eating habits, all low carb and high

protein. And if I splurged it was low carb ice cream instead of the real stuff.

This holiday season I BLEW IT!! I got into the sugar and crap soooo much

Christmas Day and last night. Popcorn, cookies, you name it, I at it. And

ALOT

of it over the course of the night. I even drank when I ate, which I never

do. And MAN can you eat the grub when you are washing it down at the same time.

I am soooo nervous that I have ruined everything. Eating all those carbs

just made me want more carbs. I have been so good so far, what do I do? I

probably consumed 3500 calories of sugar and crap and carbs last night. I out a

huge dent in the cookie plates of the 15 hour ordeal.

I am a very active person so I know I need alot of good protein to build

strength. Being a Martial Arts instructor is hard physical excersise. But how

much do I really need and how do I get over the mental anguish of screwing up so

bad??

Also.....how much can you all eat? Eating so much last night spooked me.

My little pouch can hold it down sometimes. I can eat alot at times and

other times not so much. I can eat a honking salad. Do you count calories???

Help me out here guys. Anyone else blow there holidays.......let's all lay it

out on the table here!

Missie

creatures...

We Are Their Heroes

Copyright © Jim Willis 2001, all rights reserved

If you worry that you have not made a difference, you have,

for only those who do not worry about it have not.

If you feel overwhelmed, if the weight of problems is too heavy to bear,

remember it is a shared burden

and the strength of numbers can accomplish much.

If you think society and government are blind,

it only serves to remind that we need to change

one mind at a time, one law after another.

We effect change by cooperation, not by isolation.

If you consider that we cannot save them all,

and what difference does one make?,

you ought to know the joy of the one who is saved.

Mourn those we cannot save, it is a eulogy to their being.

Do not let their loss be in vain.

Be kind to yourself, remember your needs

and those of your family and friends of every species.

If you give everything, what will you have left for yourself,

or for them?

Strive to be happy and healthy. You are needed.

Achieving balance in life is a lifelong struggle.

We who help those who do not have all that they need

should be among the most grateful for what we have.

Be proud of your accomplishments, not your opinions.

The quality of your efforts is more important than the quantity.

Forgive your own deficiencies - sometimes your caring is sufficient.

Everyone can do something, it is up to you to do the thing you can.

A kind word and a gentle touch can change a life.

If anger wells up within you, because people are the problem,

remember your humanity and that people are also the solution.

Concentrate on specific needs, pay attention to the individual -

they make up the whole.

See beyond the unlovable, the unattractive,

the impure and the wounded -

see that their spirit is as deserving as the rest. Help them heal.

Their eyes are windows to their soul

and the mirror of your sincerity.

All species, all beings, share this Earth in a chain of life.

Care more about what makes us alike than what separates us.

Policies, rules and regulations are not infallible.

Apply them judiciously, interpret them wisely.

No decision based purely on money is ever the right one.

Listen to your heart. Sometimes we have to do that which

we are most afraid of.

Be true to yourself and your beliefs.

Family may abandon you,

friends may disappoint you, strangers will ridicule you.

People shun what they do not understand.

Help them to understand - kindly, softly, gently.

Those who do not respect all life are to be pitied.

Often the wrongdoer is as in need of help as his victims.

Forgive, then teach by example.

Educate yourself or you cannot hope to teach others.

No action based in hatred is ever right

and anger drowns out wisdom.

Yours may be a voice crying in the wilderness,

make it a voice to be respected.

Listen more than you talk, be courteous and reliable.

Learn to ask for help. Never waiver from the truth.

Know that it takes a lot of strength to cry

And with every defeat, we learn.

All Creation celebrates that which is in its own best interest.

The Children are our hope - nurture them.

Nature is our legacy - protect it.

The Animals are our brethren - learn from them.

Your rewards will not be material, but they will be meaningful,

and the courage of your convictions can survive anything.

We are small boats cast adrift on a cruel sea,

but someday the tide will turn toward a safe harbor.

No matter how dark the storm clouds,

or deep the pain of heartbreak - never forget:

We are their heroes.

----------

We Are Their Heroes, Copyright © 2002 by Jim Willis

Bass

---

365/194/160

Lap RnY, Distal - Dr. s

Vanderbilt University Hospital

Surgery date June 3, 2002

as flown by! It is an AMAZING journey! One of the best in my life!

It's wonderful to feel SO much healthier and happier. Didn't even know that I

was not happy until I saw how much happier I could be!

It's great to have a life that revolves around people and activities and NOT

FOOD! It's nice to finally know what it feels like to be physically full and be

able to stop eating because NOW I can feel what full is!

It's great to go into ANY store and be able to pick something right off the rack

and know it will fit (or even be a little big, such fun!).

It's nice to sit in ANY chair and know that I will fit or won't break it!

Gee, and aren't they making public rest room stalls larger these days?!? Booths

too!

I can actually exercise without feeling like I'll explode. I go to Curves 3

times per week and find it to the the perfect form of exercise FOR ME!

I must say the ride has been an easy one and I truly believe it was because I

expected it to be. I did so much emotional and spiritual work leading up to

surgery and just continued that portion of my journey along with WLS.

Sure at one year out the weight loss has slowed down a bit . . . probably to

about 5 pounds per month. And that's OK because I've lost 134-1/2 pounds in

this first year. I've gone from a size 28/30 pant to a 14. I've gone from a

3XL top to a Large. I have 34 pounds to go to my personal goal and know I will

get there and at this point it doesn't matter when cause I'm feeling great right

where I'm at!

So, continued good wishes to all the other pre- and post-ops and enjoy the

journey because it an amazing one!

Rev. Pam

Open RNY 12/11/02

318.5/184

hoping to wake up to begin a new life. I can't say that this has been an

EASY two years.. but it has been well worth the effort! I feel as though I

am having my second birthday.. everything is new and exciting.. and I have a

whole life ahead of me.

Two years ago I could hardly breathe to walk, especially up stairs. (I can

run up the stairs now.. well.. if I HAVE to!)

Two years ago my foot was still in a boot because I had a fracture that

refused to heal. (Gone)

Two years ago I slept with CPAP because I had sleep apnea (no more! I

haven't needed a machine to breathe at night in almost a year)

Two years ago I had high blood pressure (NORMAL now)

Two years ago I was an uncontrolled on major meds diabetic) (NO more meds,

completely normal blood sugar)

Two years ago had an active mind trapped in an inactive body (I'm way more

active now.... and I am feeding my mind again)

Two years ago I didn't think I would ever work again (now I am in school

working toward a career)

Two years ago I couldn't fit comfortably in an airplane seat, nobody's rear

seatbelts fit me, and the back seat of a car was a tight squeeze (no more)

Two years ago I wore a size 32 and a 3-4XL ( and 48 bra.. the cup size is

none of your business!) Yesterday I went to Ross and bought a pantsuit

in a size 14, and size 40 bras (and they fit! .. and OK, I admit it.. I

have almost NO cup size any more!>)

.... and I am really glad to still be losing weight albeit slowly. I have no

idea where I will end up... but if I get nothing else.. I am happy! I got

my life back!

Deb

the inside no where close to the outside, probably why I have no idea how long

it's been this way. Don't usually look INSIDE my navel (kind of hard to do,

LOL). I'm 17 months post-op so not related to surgery. Haven't had any

plastics done, so not related to that. It does seem to always have been " damp "

in there; I have noticed that the last couple of months. Sometimes even first

thing in the morning (damp I mean). Didn't think much about it other than it

was probably retaining water because of the shape my tummy is now a days. It's

kinda closed up where it was more open before (bigger tummy, more open -- lose

weight, smaller tummy, closed navel -- makes sense).

Anyway it's red, a bit crusty near the edge, feels a bit " warm " and is a bit

stinky. All signs of yeast infection, right? I've got some Nystatin powder my

doc prescribed for rashes. Would this help? Warrant a trip to the doc? Just

wondering if anyone else can relate and tell me what might help. No pain, no

symptoms other than those above. TIA

S.

-- he's crazy! He's just not used to feeling my skeletal structure! (I'm

not used to it either). So last night, to illustrate what is TRULY boney &

skinny, I had him watch (well he just looked for a second or two) that new show

" The Simple Life " with Paris Hilton & Ritchie. When PH came on the

screen, I yelled and pointed: " NOW THERE, THAT'S SKINNY!!! " and he looked a

little startled and said, " Geez you're not kidding. Somebody should throw

that girl a pork chop. " LMAO! I just thought that was pretty funny!

Okay gotta run, is supposed to be giving a cow a rectal on tonight's

episode. Can't miss that!

Lucille

Judy

Lap Proximal RNY 7/23/02

Drs. and Rabkin/SF

54/5'3 " - 257/140

size 22/XXL - 6/S

bmi 46/24

-66 inches

Surgery Monday went very well. The Dr. said she removed about 10 lbs.

Jerri is up and around, and recovering nicely at Harper Hospital in

Detroit. Her phone # is 1- and she is in room 9402. We hope

she will get to come home Wednesday, but Thursday is a strong

possibility. They only did the abdomen, as the insurance denied the

breasts. I spent Thurs and Fri last week fighting for the tummy after

they denied it. Jerri was happy to at least be getting the abdomen

done. Well, this was just a quick note to fill you all in and thank-you

again for your support.

Thanks!!! Larry

little iron pills that Vitalady used to have. My iron pre-surgery was just

inside normal ranges and it started to drop after surgery. I was taking one

iron pill 3-4 x wkly and Vitalady suggested I up it to 4 a day based on my

lab results over a years time. I started taking 4 at once every day. I

take them either first thing in the morning with a protein drink or right

before I go to bed with water. I've had no problems physically (i.e.

nausea) and my iron levels are going back up; slowly but a definite upward

trend.

I'm with you; if I had to split them up 2 x per day, I'd never remember or

wouldn't have enough hours to get everything in. And I try to stick to the

empty stomach with iron but I do my B12 and one Vit C with my 4 iron pills

too.

S.

Re: Re: Re: Information on Isotonix: CAUTION

ADVISED (long)

> Do you think that's true of taking a full day's dosage of IRON all at

once?

> I hear some people do it this way, while others split it morning &

evening.

> I've been taking it in one lump lately, but when I checked with my

dietician

> she told me not to. I really hate splitting stuff cause I will generally

> forget the second dose (I'm an idiot what can I say!) If folk have been

> maintaining their iron levels well while taking their entire dose in one

sitting, I

> would be encouraged to continue this rebellion! LOL!

>

> Signed,

> Someone who believes a little anarchy never hurt anyone ....

>

> Lucille

>

>

childhood. As much as I protest at what a lousy mom I was...she remembers

all the cuddling...and especially the sound of my voice when I read to her.

She also remembers going to bed...and hearing me play the piano....the only

time I had to practice...when the kids were all tucked away. She said it

gave her such good memories. I'm missing her bad right now...haven't seen

her in a year. She was an ultra happy child...and I think even the worst

mother would be seen through her little rose colored glasses!

Regards~

Jacque

.. My Mom gave me an amazing

> gift...the ability to love myself for ME, not for how I look or for

> how others might perceive me. Thanks Mom.

>

>

,

That is exactly what I hope my daughters will say about me. You have a

wonderful outlook on life! Good Job Fay! Kim O

hoped that I was doing something positive for my life - however with a husband

and two little boys I was scared to death.

Today I am holding off 135lbs (this is a 78% loss of excess weight) and doing

very well. I have come to realize that I will NEVER be one of those size 4's

and relish in the normalcy of a 12 or 14 and I small or medium on top. I feel

great - my labs are good and I do use one or two shakes a day (or my hair starts

to suffer).

There have been many ups and downs over the last 4 years. The psychological

process of losing that much weight that fast (my original loss was 155 lbs) was

unreal. I was one of those poor souls who thought that once I was thin life

would be perfect - nope. Then there is the " What You See In The Mirror is Not

What You Really Are " game. Still don't know that I see myself accurately in the

mirror - but the image I see is better.

Focusing on better body image, finding my sweet spot (doesn't have to be the

MD's weight or a BMI of 24 for me - it is about feel good and being able to do

things I want/need to do), and focusing on the gifts this surgery has given me.

Lot's of new friends (online and in person), health, a new wardrobe, and the

ability to ride a bike with my kids, just to name a few.

For those that are struggling just know that you can beat this. We had a bad

year and I gained back 30 lbs - I have lost 15 of the 30 and am very

comfortable.

Thank you all for the support you have given me over the years - it has been

priceless.

Love,

Marjie

sorry that EMOSS list rules were broken by forwarding a message off-list without

the poster's permission. I'm really glad to have this information, but I

disagree with a number of points made by the Isotonix representatives and feel

that the facts of the matter have a dramatic impact on how we absorb these or

any other supplements.

First of all, nobody involved in the Isotonix response has offered one of the

most important things that I asked for... a series of lab results from any

individuals (preferably more than one) with a malabsorptive surgery and three or

more years of experience with these supplements. Also, I have yet to see even

one set of two-years-in-a-row DEXAscans, never mind five years. We have this

information (in some cases, for ten years or more) with conventional

supplements, and that's how we've seen what works and what doesn't. We can all

talk all we want, but unless we have lab test results to compare, we're all full

of hot air, don't you think? I want strong bones and blood, and hot air's not

part of that picture. :-)

Next, most of us, unless we are Simonowitz 25 cm bypasses, have a great deal

more than just the duodenum bypassed. My surgery is not at all atypical, with a

125 cm bypass. Many people in our group have distal bypasses, meaning that they

have in the neighborhood of only 100 - 200 cm small intestine available for

absorption of nutrients (500-600 cm bypassed, leaving just a short portion of

the ileum). Everyone that has a malabsorptive surgery can count on low

absorption of nutrients from normal food, including dense protein foods. Lab

work of post-ops who consume no supplements at all (protein, vitamin, and

mineral) demonstrate this adequately, if not immediately, then within five years

or so of surgery when long-term stores are depleted.

The entire small intestine in most adults is about 700 cm long; the duodenum

(literally meaning " twelve fingers " ) is about 25 cm in length, the jejunum is

about 275 cm long, and the ileum is about 400 cm long. The majority of nutrient

absorption occurs in the first 175 cm of the small intestine, with about 50%

taking place in the 25 cm of duodenum. NO patient with a malabsorptive surgery

can make use of any nutrients from food if they would normally be absorbed in

the duodenum. In particular, most WLS patients do not expect to make much use of

proteins which must be digested from food, most fat is eliminated from the body

without absorption (witness the dry skin so many of us have), and not only do

many of us become lactose intolerant after surgery but dairy products are hard

to digest anyway and result in mostly wasted nutritional opportunity (but even

with our bypasses, we seem to make immediate use of the sugars presented by

these foods).

As far as supplement pills not being broken down and used, I think this is

incorrect based on three facts:

- we do not often see the tablets or portions thereof in the stool (though there

are some tablets, especially some large multi-vitamins, that are clearly

observed in the stool, and those should be avoided)

- lab testing reveals better nutrient profiles when taking these products than

when not taking these products

- with regards to calcium, excellent DEXAscans are obtained when using calcium

citrate; persons not taking calcium citrate after malabsorptive surgery often

see a rapid decline in bone mass leading to osteopenia or osteoporosis

Again, I ask, where are the lab spreadsheets and the DEXAscans from the people

who have been taking Isotonix products for years after malabsorptive surgeries?

I'd consider recommending this product (though I think it's outrageously priced)

IF you can prove results to me with lab results. My cheap regimen's

effectiveness CAN BE DOCUMENTED THROUGH MY BLOODWORK AND DEXASCANS, and that of

many others like me. I know I'm absorbing the iron I take (Chromagen Forte)

because I had pernicious anemia before beginning to take it and injected Vitamin

B-12, and I no longer have it; instead, I have normal or near-normal values. I

know three other gastric bypass post-ops who have seen similar results with this

combination.

This scientist speaks of Isotonix products triggering special sensory nerve

cells in the lower stomach when they arrive there, via the stomach stretching

from consuming the liquid... if you have a correctly-functioning malabsorptive

surgery, NOTHING ENTERS THE LOWER STOMACH. EVER. Not food, not supplements, not

Isotonix solutions. So that " special trigger " is not going to take place. The

duodenal sphincter and lower stomach are completely bypassed (as is the pyloric

valve) and are not part of the picture. How does that affect the absorption of

Isotonix solutions? As I see it, they are going to zoom right through the small

valveless stomach pouch and straight into the small intestine at a much higher

rate than the scientists who developed Isotonix products intended.

I stand corrected about micrograms vs. nanograms. My error. However, I stand by

the assertion that micrograms of most nutrients (except vitamin B-12 and a few

others) are not enough, especially in a known malabsorptive scenario where

additional supplementation is needed from the start. I also stand by the

assertion that calcium carbonate is NOT the right calcium for us. The 1994 NIH

Consensus Statement on Calcium specifically states that calcium citrate is THE

calcium supplement of choice for those with low stomach acid -- that would be

us. They DON'T recommend isotonic solution supplements, despite having (no

doubt) considered all the scientific material available at that time.

" Prove to me that your body is using all of that iron (36 to 40 mg) and

definitely prove to me that your body needs 2520 milligrams of elemental

calcium. That's a constipating dose, especially when combined with a

calcium-rich diet, and most of the calcium is going down the tube. "

I'm not taking 36 to 40 mg of iron, I'm taking 302 mg of elemental iron each day

in the form of 920 mg ferrous fumerate USP (2 Chromagen Forte capsules, taken at

different times and at least two hours away from any calcium). I can prove it

because my blood work shows a change from frank pernicious anemia (completely

abnormal for a 35 year old female) to healthy numbers across the board in a

period of about six weeks, with sustained good values for an additional four

months so far. My calcium does not constipate me, or perhaps it does, but when

combined with the common bowel-loosening effect of malabsorptive surgery, they

cancel each other out and I do not notice as I have normal stooling habits. My

DEXAscans are perfect, and that's what I care about. Wasted calcium is OK;

osteopenia and osteoporosis, both of which are common in my family, are not. So

I will carry on with my regimen until specific peer-reviewed study results are

available for your product as used by malabsorptive surgery post-ops showing

clearly superior results that would justify the added expense of the product.

Even a collection of anecdotal data would be helpful, but it seems to be

unavailable.

By the way, the calcium citrate tablets that I use, Citracal Plus, dissolve in

WATER, never mind the acidic environment made by saliva. If I pick them up in a

damp hand, they instantly start to disintegrate. In no way am I concerned that

they have not completely melted by the time they hit my small intestine; I KNOW

that they have. And as I said before, I have the great DEXAscans to prove that

my body is USING that calcium. The only time of my life that I took calcium

carbonate on a regular basis was while I was pregnant with my daughter in 1999;

my prenatal contained a large dose of calcium carbonate. My thyroid was healthy,

I was drinking three liters of water a day (with a spreadsheet to track it!),

and was not consuming any carbonated beverages or caffeine. I developed a kidney

stone when I was six months pregnant, and passing it, even with good drugs, was

MUCH more painful than the unmedicated home birth of my almost 9 pound baby in

January of 2000. The urologist was the one who asked me about calcium carbonate

in any supplements, I was not even aware of the potential problems at that time,

and had my digestive system intact. So, no thanks. I know I am an anecdotal

report of one person, but no calcium carbonate enters my body, even if it comes

in a fancy/expensive package!

As for the anecdotal report of ONE woman attaining normal B-12 levels on the

Isotonix preparation, I'd like to know what's being considered " normal " . Many

labs consider anything over 200 " normal " , but that's only because that's the

level where permanent neurological damage can begin to set in. Most people find

that they need to have serum B-12 levels over 600 to actually feel good, and

some physicians like to see people maintain levels of 800 or higher. Is the

Isotonix keeping her there? I think that there's some grey area because some

people do seem to be able to absorb liquid B-12 across mucous membranes without

intrinsic factor in the picture -- but not me, as proven by the pernicious

anemia despite daily sublingual supplementation. I do continue to believe,

however, that it's stupid to pay a lot of money for a B-12 preparation that

MIGHT work when after five minutes of training and for less than $15 a year, a

patient can inject themselves with the vitamin every two weeks and be certain

that they are obtaining adequate levels of this essential vitamin.

So, thanks for the further information about these vitamins. I'm sorry to see

that the doctor who responded to my comments doesn't have a clear understanding

of the digestive changes brought about by restrictive/malabsorptive surgery for

obesity. Certainly, it is an area where more research is needed, but I have been

doing my own research for four years, have consulted with many post-ops who are

many years out (in some cases, over 20 years), and have compared the lab work of

dozens of people on various supplement regimes. We have seen what works for our

community and with others who are committed to our improved health, continue to

review lab results and other data. I'm not a scientist, but I am a well-educated

layperson, and I do not accept advice from those who do not know much about my

particular surgery or bariatric surgery in general.

EVERY gastric bypass patient needs to evaluate their health with their personal

physician and needs to evaluate which supplements to take carefully, preferably

on the basis of regularly drawn blood work and same-date annual DEXAscans.

Supplements that do not provide the expected results can then be eliminated from

the patient's nutrition program before they have time to do harm. It goes

without saying that EVERY gastric bypass patient needs to take nutritional

supplements for the rest of their lives, but it remains an open question as to

which supplements actually provide the best results.

Ziobro

Founder, EMOSS

Open RNY 09/17/01

http://www.ziobro.us

________________________________

From: & Debi Waldeck

Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:43 AM

To: EMOSS

Cc: Ziobro; BandRGress@...

Subject: ISOTONIC NUTRITION

Importance: High

Hello All-

My name is Debi Waldeck and I have been forwarded the message from via

Ruby Gress regarding Isotonic Nutrition. As I have been lecturing nationwide,

presenting research that presents the relationship between wellness and

absorption, I was surprised at this email. I therefore, forwarded to the

Executive Vice President of the company and several doctors.

Here is the response. If you have any questions, my phone number in Issaquah is

.

Debi Waldeck

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

-----------------

Hello Debbie, this is Dennis s, Executive Vice President. Thank you for

sharing the copy of the email sent out by a concerned support group member.

's comments deserve a comment and our good Dr Wilmer has taken the

time to do just that. I hope everyone in the group gets these comments to help

educate the members. I also hope that for those who want a great tasting quality

dietary supplement to please take Isotonix products everyday, they will be glad

they did. Today was an interesting day. I received a call from a women who had a

gastric by-pass surgery 15 years ago. She shared with me, how important it was,

that people who have had this operation MUST continue to take their supplements

daily for the rest of their life or experience some very negative effects from

lack of nutrition. She shared some terrible stories of friends of hers who have

lost all of their teeth, experienced a major amount of bone fractures and loss

of vision. It is amazing her story. She is now on a mission to teach everyone

who has gone through this surgery, to NOT STOP taking Nutritional supplements

daily.

[EMOSS] Re: Information on Isotonix: CAUTION ADVISED (long)

Lots of EMOSS members and others have been talking about these

Isotonix solutions, and I've done some research because I'm

concerned about some of the things I've heard. Here are my concerns

about these Isotonix products, take it or leave it, I have not used

them, but I am analyzing them based on their published ingredients

and programs. One of the red flags for me is that there's no three

to five year data out with these, just nearly-anecdotal single sets

of labs. If you haven't been taking ANYTHING, sure, these might pull

borderline low levels up a bit, but I seriously doubt they are going

to maintain a malabsorbing body in good health indefinitely.

Where are three years' worth of comprehensive blood test results

from even a single post-op? Where are five years' worth of annual

DEXA-scans for a post-op on these products? Nobody can show them to

you. If you value your bones, nerves, and flesh, RUN. I am not

willing to be a guinea pig (especially if I have to pay handsomely

to become one), and I hope you're not wild about the idea either. :-)

Keep in mind that Isotonix is a multi-level marketing business, and

they are notorious for doing their best to sell products while

sometimes ignoring the science (and if you think I'm bitter or

jealous or something, I am actually a MLM distributor for a great

line of human-grade pet foods called Flint River Ranch. MLM

companies are not all bad, but the business model leaves everything

open to more loose interpretation and you must carefully research

these products before using them, especially IMO if you are going to

literally trust them with your life).

I think the recommendation to mix the entire day's dose of

EVERYTHING, vitamins, minerals, B-12, etc., into a 10 oz. glass of

water borders on malpractice. There's nothing " special enough " about

making things " isotonic " to get by your body's ability to absorb

calcium and iron. You can't get them both at the same time, period,

unless perhaps they were being pushed IV, something that can only be

done by a hematologist in a medical setting. Clearly, calcium and iron

products can be taken at the same time without one interfering with the uptake

of the other. Calcium is transported as an ion through specialized channels

traversing intestinal cell membranes, and to the best of my knowledge, calcium

does not share this channel with iron.

All " isotonic " means, by the way, is " having the same or equal

osmotic pressure " and when spoken of this sort of solution,

typically it means having the same osmotic pressure as blood. Well,

saline has the same osmotic pressure as blood. It means that radical

changes in the chemistry of the liquid do not have to take place for

the liquid to penetrate the cell membranes; it doesn't mean that the

cells will be able to do anything useful with the components of that

solution! Research has clearly shown that Isotonic solutions pass through

the stomach more rapidly than hypotonic or hypertonic solutions. Most pills have

to be dissolved in the stomach first and that can take 30-60 minutes before they

are even in solution. All the while the nutrients are exposed to stomach acid in

the highly acidic pH range of about 1.5 to 2.8 and are being churned in this

soup. That assumes that the tablet was manufactured properly and is capable of

being wetted and then crushed by the muscular contractions of the duodenal

portion of the stomach. In some cases the individual (typically an older

individual) does not have the stomach acid or volume of juice to adequately

digest food or supplements. What happens then? There is a documented phenomenon

where the stomach literally gives up on the tablet or capsule and squirts it

intact into the small intestine where it stands little chance of being utilized

for its nutrients.

Isotonix triggers specialized sensory cells in the lower portion of the

stomach and so it fits three major criteria for rapid transit: (1) it is

isotonic (just like a fully digested food solution), (2) it has an acidic pH

(just like a fully digested food solution), and (3) it has sufficient mass which

stretches specialized nerve cells in the stomach wall, all three actions which

trigger the opening of the duodenal sphincter and contractions of the stomach.

This activity allows the Isotonix solution to reach the small intestine, the

major absorptive site, at high concentrations. Some vitamins and minerals are

absorbed through active transport and so they will not be affected much by their

high concentrations achieved on the lumenal side of the intestine. However,

other vitamins and minerals are not absorbed by active transport but instead

diffuse passively through the enterocyte membrane. In this case, the

concentration of the solute (nutrient) in the lumen is critical, as it

establishes a so-called gradient flowing from high concentration in the lumen to

a low concentration inside enterocytes.

Isotonix Calcium Plus

Each 4.45 g (One level 5 mL spoonful of powder) contains:

Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) 40 mg

Calcium (total) (324.7 mg from carbonate, 939 µg from citrate, 225

mg from lactate, 77.7 mg from phosphate, 16.6 mg from sulfate) 645

mg

Cholecalciferol (equiv vitamin D3 445 IU) 11.1 µg

Magnesium (total) (5.7 mg from carbonate, 128.8 mg from oxide) 134.5

mg

Manganese (as sulfate) 723 µg

Potassium (as citrate) 33.8 mg

Riboflavine (vitamin B2) 2.2 mg

in a non-active base of pectin, malic acid, fructose, citric acid,

glucose, natural orange flavour, potassium bicarbonate.

WHERE TO START in on this one?!? First of all, let's look at the

inactive ingredients. I see some free-riding " ose " -- SUGAR. Do you

need that? No. Next, do I see CARBONATE?? Garbage. Do I see

NANOgrams of citrate? Garbage. Calcium phosphate, lactate, and

sulfate are all also poorly absorbed even by normies. I wouldn't bet

anything on this calcium formula except kidney stones. Oh, and you

should be taking this three times a day, by itself, not with iron.

Because you can't absorb more than about 500 mg at a time IF it's

the right stuff, and we should be taking at least 1500 mg a day to

protect our bones. As an aside, the designation " µg " stands for micrograms,

not nanograms (ng), which signals the importance of an education to understand

major points in formulations. Many forms of calcium are perfectly acceptable for

use in medicinal/nutritional supplements, but it is important to have the

correct base ingredients and water to ionize calcium, magnesium, and manganese.

This formula is designed to include malic acid, citric acid, and ascorbic acid

(vitamin C). Now what happens when water is added to a powder containing these

organic acids and calcium carbonate? These substances react with one another and

transiently form calcium malate, calcium citrate, and calcium ascorbate. Under

the acidic conditions of the Isotonix solution, however, even these compounds

are tugged apart by water molecules and they become ionized. Calcium is not

absorbed by enterocytes in the form of compounds such as calcium citrate,

calcium sulfate, calcium lactate, or calcium carbonate. This mineral is absorbed

through protein channels or gated pores as the cation (Ca2+). Meanwhile, that

calcium citrate tablet you thought was so fantastic is still not dissolved

completely as it requires plenty of stomach juice and stomach contractions to

disintegrate it. True, it may not need the hydrochloric acid that a calcium

carbonate tablet requires, but then Isotonix does not need hydrochloric acid at

all. It is already an acidic solution with plenty of water.

Actually, the amount of calcium that a person can effectively absorb is more

in the range of 300-400 mg per " sitting, " so Isotonix falls into an absorbable

dose when taken twice a day as recommended.

While the body requires 1000-1500 mg of calcium per day, depending on age and

physiological status, it is not critical to get the entire amount from

dietary/medicinal supplements. Food (dairy and green leafy vegetables) is still

the preferred route.

Actually, the notion that calcium compounds in the diet or supplements is a

trigger for the formation of kidney/bladder stones is a misunderstanding. Almost

invariably other causes are far more prevalent as a cause for stones, including

chronic infection of the kidneys, low water intake, high intake of phosphoric

acid from soft drinks, frequent ingestion of foods high in oxalic acid,

overdosing with vitamin C (gram amounts), elevated cysteine content of urine,

and parathyroid hormone dysfunction resulting in loss of minerals from bone.

Regarding the presence of sugars, fructose and glucose are the substances

that contribute the most to the tonicity (osmolarity) of Isotonix solutions.

Most of the sugar is from fructose, which has a low glycemic index of 18 out of

a 100 point scale. In my opinion, Isotonix has a lower glycemic index than most

foods including proteins.

Isotonix B-12

Each 4.2 g (One level 5 mL spoonful of powder) contains:

Magnesium (as carbonate) 40 mg

Calcium (as sulfate) 3.85 mg

Cyanocobalamin (vitamin B12) 120 µg

Folic acid 400 µg

Riboflavin (vitamin B2) 3 mg

in a non-active base of fructose, pectin, citric acid, glucose,

maltodextrin, lemon and lime flavours, potassium bicarbonate and

colloidal anhydrous silica

AGAIN, a whole bunch of SUGARS are getting a free ride into you. And

this B-12 will be next to useless without intrinsic factor (which we

don't have) unless you are holding the liquid in your mouth, under

your tongue, for at least two minutes -- and some of us STILL can't

absorb B-12 sublingually, no matter how how hard we try. Anyone

keeping this stuff in their mouth for two minutes? I doubt it. This

product is an expensive source of folic acid and riboflavin.

I agree that on a theoretical basis Intrinsic Factor does appear to be

required for adequate movement of vitamin B-12 into the enterocytes via an

IF/B-12 complex bound to membrane receptors. I would hesitate to say that all

Intrinsic Factor production is halted in gastric bypass patients and its release

is incapable of being stimulated. I have read one report from a woman in the US

who has a gastric bypass, and she indicated that her B-12 blood level is normal

(i.e., in the correct range) when using Isotonix. She combined her Vitamin B-12

with several other Isotonix products. I agree that it is impractical to leave

Isotonix on/under the tongue for minutes on end. Even liposomal products don't

do especially well. I.M. injections are still the preferred route for a gastric

bypass patient to get his/her vitamin B-12. I would also remind you that,

although the vitamin B-12 molecule is large and charged, it is possible to use

large doses to " drive " some small amounts of material across cell membranes. Two

respected human physiology textbooks describe both mechanisms: Intrinsic Factor

(major) and simple diffusion (minor).

Isotonix MultiTech

Each 4.1 g (One level 5 mL spoonful of powder) contains:

Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) 120 mg

Biotin (vitamin H) 150 µg

Calcium pantothenate (vitamin B5) 12.3 mg

Cholecalciferol (equiv vitamin D3 410 IU) 10.2 µg

Cyanocobalamin (vitamin B12) 15 µg

dl-alpha-Tocopheryl acetate (equiv vitamin E, 33IU) 33 mg

Folic Acid 300 µg

Betacarotene 4.5 mg

Nicotinamide 49.2 mg

Pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6) 4.1 mg

Riboflavin (vitamin B2) 4.1 mg

Thiamine hydrochloride (vitamin B1) 4.1 mg

Calcium (total) (52.6 mg from carbonate, 1 mg from pantothenate, 8.6

mg from sulfate) 62.2 mg

Chromium (as nicotinate) 50 µg

Magnesium (as carbonate) 11.7 mg

Manganese (as sulfate) 5.33 mg

Selenium (as sodium selenite) 52 µg

Iodine (as potassium iodide) 88 µg

Zinc (as gluconate) 7.5 mg

in a non-active base of pectin, fructose, citric acid, glucose,

maltodextrin, lemon and lime flavors, potassium bicarbonate and

colloidal anhydrous silica.

SUGARS. More kidney stone-calcium. Not a hell of a lot of other good

stuff. Major stuff missing. Low dose of beta-carotene vitamin A.

Apparently, not such great flavor. My earlier comments about sugars still

hold true here, as do my statements about the reaction of organic acids with

calcium carbonate and the very low probability of a good calcium source causing

kidney stones. The dose of vitamin A (as the safe antioxidant beta-carotene) was

essentially chosen by your very own TGA. Go tell it on the mountain. I find the

Australian and American MultiTechs to be palatable, and of course they can

always be mixed with other Isotonix products. We are working to make the flavor

technology even better.

And this " system " runs is $75/month? It's a system alright, to make

a whole chain of distributors a whole bunch of money!!

My home-rolled " system " gives me 200% of the RDA of iron in a form I

can PROVE my body's using, 2520 mg a day of calcium CITRATE and

related minerals in the correct ratios, two complete adult chewable

multi-vitamin/multi-minerals a day, and a B-12 shot twice a month,

and costs a grand total $45 a month. The iron is even Rx, and next

year my insurance will cover it, so I will only be paying $20/month

for supplemental nutrition I can trust. Prove to me that your body is using

all of that iron (36 to 40 mg) and definitely prove to me that your body needs

2520 milligrams of elemental calcium. That's a constipating dose, especially

when combined with a calcium-rich diet, and most of the calcium is going down

the tube.

So the Isotonix as suggested only means taking stuff once a day, and

my " system " involves one softgel, two chewables (no sugar), a shot I

give myself every two weeks, and eight calcium tablets... I " take "

stuff five times a day. I don't care about that. The Isotonix, to

meet anywhere near the correct dosages and spacing for absorbability

would need to be taken four times a day, and to match my program,

would have to be taken six times a day. It would also cost more like

$150/month if you really were comparing equivalent programs at the

prices I could find from distributors who do have websites.

I think the Isotonix phenomenon is only a fad, and I really hope

that it doesn't hurt any of our people along the way. Again, I think

this is one of those cases where someone got excited about something

but people haven't done enough hard-core research to see if it was

going to help US. Normies MIGHT be able to get benefit from these

formulas, but our special needs (no stomach acid, no intrinsic

factor, among others) rule these out as a good choice for us.

From a distributor's website: " IsotonixT products do not linger in

the stomach. Since isotonic fluids pass through the digestive

process and are rapidly absorbed into the bloodstream,

gastrointestinal discomfort can be avoided. IsotonixT products are

not encapsulated or compacted into a " form. " There is no need for

fillers, binders, coatings, lubricants, disintegrators or artificial

coloring. With IsotonixT products, there is no guesswork involved.

You can be assured that when used as directed, you get the exact

amount of nutrients shown, in the exact isotonic state desired. The

delivery efficiency of IsotonixT helps ensure that maximum benefits

are derived from the supplements. Because the nutrients arrive at

the absorption site more rapidly and highly concentrated, excellent

use of the nutrients should be achieved. " Again, this paragraph from our

educational literature describes the efficient passive diffusion possible

through setting up a concentration gradient in the small intestine. It does not

refer to micronutrients that are actively transported since concentration does

not matter nearly as much.

Unfortunately, our bodies do not provide some of the processing

capabilities that these vitamins require, ESPECIALLY since most of

the absorption sites (duodenum) are bypassed for even the most

proximal of us. And I believe, based on the research that I've done,

that the " slower " forms such as tablets are actually BETTER for us,

inert (but non-sugar) fillers be damned. We don't have a pyloric

valve to slow things down for even a moment, and that means that an

important " system flow control " is missing from the Isotonix

picture. The duodenum is bypassed (~1 foot), but then the solutions are

flowing over the next 10 to 11 feet of small intestine epithelium for

absorption. You must be using special quick dissolve tablets, because if you

aren't, then the amount of digestive juices released into your GI tract won't be

sufficient to dissolve them. I'd rather be certain that my small intestine at

least had the opportunity to " see " and absorb the micronutrients in solution as

they flow down the intestine.

Each of us has to decide what's best for us. I do think that it's

important, no, CRITICAL, for people to look into the merit of these

products and to do their own thinking about what's best and how they

want to spend their money. I wouldn't take a surgeon's supplement

recommendation fully to heart; how many of them think kids' chewable

Flintstones and Tums (calcium carbonate) are nutritional

powerhouses? Many of them, and anyone who has done even basic

research knows that advice is dead wrong.

Z

Open RNY 09/17/01

http://www.ziobro.us

> > Hi Ruby -

> >

> > Can you please email me off line and give me a price list for

> these products, and how I would go about obtaining them from you.

> this truly sounds like the way to go - those chewable adult

vitamins

> are the worst!! I am four weeks out and feeling great, but I want

> to be sure to start down the right path with all the vitamins and

> supplements I will need for now and into the future!!

> >

> > Thanks!!

> >

> > Lynn H (Tgrbabe@c...)

> > Dr Weber - RNY 10/29/03

> > 310/275/170

wonderful and VERY pretty at Thanksgiving, planning on making it

again for Christmas, but I need a SF pound cake. Anyone ever see

one on the market or do I have to bake one?

Here's the recipe: (They don't come any easier for something that

sets up this pretty!)

1 pound cake cubed

2 pkg sugar free vanilla pudding

1/8 cup brandy (or to taste...I used a tad more

cool whip

1 can no sugar added sliced peaches.

Just make the pudding as per instructions...then add the drained

peaches which you diced a bit (hmmm...buy diced lite peaches if you

can find them...that would work also.)

Cube the entire pound cake and mix lightly with brandy. Then add

the pudding mixture and just lightly mix until pound cake is coated

well.

Now just alternate layers with cool whip in a pretty bowl, chill and

serve.

The brandy and the pound cake are unbelievably good and if we can

make the pound cake or buy it without sugar, bingo...a desert to die

for!

Nobody suggested that what Jac had written was inappropriate or a problem --

the message that generated 's request to keep " politics " out of this arena

is below.

From:  " cindyjrubin " <<A

HREF= " http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG/post?postID=qx3ujNiHKPH\

5EqcsPsdNsVb22tEEOaf3_dfw4bgM5BPU02EcwIOd9LlWD_pcNeGzmsu14HgFzuPHiK6Rm1M " >cindyj\

rubin@y...</A>>

Date:  Mon Dec 1, 2003  10:46 am

Subject:  Re: OT Politics

Bush did what other war time presidents have done, and that is visit

the troops. It is a moral booster for them, but politically, of

greater value during a re-election campaign. He is politically

vulnerable due to his initiating the war in Iraq, not finding any

weapons of mass destruction, the daily deaths of soldiers due to

terrorism and so a " feel good " photo-op like his trip to Iraq will be

invaluable to his re-election campaign.

Cindy in Va

lap RNY 2/8/02

he won't give them to me all at once,

======================================

A month ago I finished up with a series 23 iron infusions. I went twice

a week for three months and it was well worth it. As my levels climbed

higher, so did my energy. Just went back for my one month check up and

my levels are currently at 13.7/39.4. The first appointment was for a

little over 2 hrs to make sure that I didn't have a reaction to the

infusion. The rest of the injections took less than ten minutes in and

out of the office. My hematologist really runs on time. Only twice

during that three months did I have to wait more than 15 minutes to get

my infusion. Maybe you can find a hematologist who accepts your

insurance so it won't be so prohibitive.

Hope you're feeling better soon.

Regina

vitalady@... writes:

No. It's easier to blame us for our condition. Hence the concept that

protein deficiency develops because those fat people, you can't do a thing

with them, like make them eat.

========================================

Now this is funny, I am laughing and crying at the same time.

I received an interesting letter yesterday from The University of

Pennsylvania School of Medicine, asking me if I would be interested in

qualifying for a

survey " of inherited differences in body weight " It is part of the Behavior

Genetics program. I wonder where they got my name and address. They say they

have been advertising. Anyone receive this letter.

Fay Bayuk

**300/172

10/23/01

Dr.

Open RNY 150 cm

Click for My Profile

http://obesityhelp.com/morbidobesity/profile.phtml?N=Bayuk951061008

I went to a

" quack " hematologist (IMHO anyway), and he didn't believe in them and didn't

really know

much about bypass patients either, SO, my gal pal went to a Dr near me and I got

his name,

made the appt, seen him today and he is totally on board with GB peeps! I just

pray now that

I don't have a reaction to the iron in the first hour, as if it that is ok, they

will continue to

infuse me for the next 4-5 hours... he believes in giving them all in one shot,

then repeating

the labs at 6 weeks and see where you are from there. My gal pal just had her 6

weeks

check up yesterday and her iron is at 13 now! She's thrilled, feels better to,

now she can go

on with her PS next month. At this point, I'm just hoping to never again take

oral iron and

stop feeling so tired, especially around that time of the month! I could nap

all day long in

that week span!

Well, just wanted to share that I'm finally making some progress in the Iron

department!

Thanks so much to many of you who have sent me private emails on your stories

about your

infusions and how they work. I do have a question though, have many of you had

the total

infusion at one time? If so, how do you feel right after it? And, how do you

feel now? I have

another gal pal that had GB, and she is going through 14 infusions for her

treatment.

Thanks,

Sheila in Chgo

=:-)

have been nasty with a lot of anger behind them. Is she on medication

that she stopped taking or something. She sure sounds like she has a bee

in her bonnet lately.

Love,

Regina

I don't think anyone has called missing one's husband a political issue.

I

believe the political part of the post was the reference to what a great

thing

Bush did in visiting the troops. For my part, the troops wouldn't be

there in

the first place, if it weren't for Bush. He put our family members in

harm's

way. But that is also a political statement and not supposed to be

allowed on

this list.

Carol A