Not Understanding

October 27, 2006

Dear scd

I would say most of us arrived at our

convictions by doing extensive research. This takes time and commitment.

It is what each parent must do on his own

or her own. That would be the best path for you, rather than some of us

defending ourselves,

which clearly may spill over into personal,

subjective and emotional accounts.

We certainly can assist you in

your research .

Here are some excellent

resources:

www.safeminds.org,

www.generationrescue.org, www.nationalautismassociation.org

www.autismone.org

www.achamp.org

www.nomercury.org www.unlockingautism.org , some

studies funded by CAN, www.cureautismnow.org

google the Autism Research Institute,

headed by Dr. Bernie Rimland, and google his brainchild, DAN, Defeat Autism

Now and their conferences,

google USAAA .The Asperger and Autism

Association of America;

google the work of Dr. Boyd Haley, Dr. M.

Horning, Dr. Burbacher, Dr. O’Hara,

Dr.

Mumper, Dr. Usman, Dr. Ayoub, Dr. Geier,

Dr.

Wakefield, Dr. Buttar, Mark Blaxill, Sally Bernard, Binstock and countless others

whose names you can find on the above

websites as well as the conference lists of DAN , USAAA,

and Autism One . You should also review

the articles and research by Pringle, Dan Olmsted, Rep. Weldon,

F.Kennedy, Jr, among others

Research the Merk

Memo Simpsonwood...but these things are on the above website; you must

search and research

You should also

research conflict of interest within CDC, FDA, NIH and other government agencies,

involving

among other

entities, pharmaceuticals,

You have your work

cur out for you, but as you are serious about uncovering the truth,

you will welcome

the work,

The evidence will speak for itself Suzanne Messina REAACH

From: EOHarm

[mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of scd7131

Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006

10:49 AM

EOHarm

Subject: Not

understanding

Hi all -

I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is

autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my

knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for

my son's disability.

I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to

be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by

environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in

vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling

evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies

have been published that have failed to show the link between

vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand

why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the

decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment

options stems from this fact.

Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to

question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly

do not know what causes autism and have no special information which

would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It

seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then,

is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of

the other?

October 27, 2006

Suzanne -

Thank you for your thoughtful response, and thank you also for taking

the time to compile the various resources and links. I appreciate

also the words of encouragement.

I have done what I consider to be extensive research (through many of

the provided links) - it has been two years since my son was

diagnosed, and I have been digging into this issue ever since (you

all are very familiar with the all-consuming need to " know " that your

approach is the best one for your child). Also, my college education

was in neurophysiology (though I did not pursue that as a career),

which provided a solid base of knowledge as a starting point -

particularly in statistical analysis and what constitutes valid

research results.

In my studies I have found a large body of what I would consider

circumstantial evidence that there may be a link between vaccinations

and autism - but I have also found an equally large body of

statistically sound research that would indicate that there is no

link. In my current view, the information would indicate not that

there is no link, but that no link has been proven. I have a very

open mind on this topic, though, and am trying to gain some

additional perspective.

Epidemiological evidence seems to be the strongest in support of the

link, but it is the weakest form of research (although the only

choice in many cases), and in no way proves causation. I try to

minimize the value in my own judgment process of epidemiological

evidence, regardless of which way it points us.

It does occur to me that, if there is a link finally proven between

autism and vaccinations, the cause may actually be auto-immune

response as opposed to toxicity. My son, for example, has had two

episodes of shingles, which are a result of his immune system mis-

handling (for lack of a better term) the chicken pox vaccine. So it

would seem that his auto-immune response is atypical at least in that

case. He does not have any of the " gut " issues that I have read and

heard so much about, and the lack of that has caused my wife and I to

adhere to behavioral modification therapy (ABA, speech, OT,

(therapeutic horsemanship). He has improved in many ways. If I were

to list the areas of improvement, it would sound a lot like the

success stories I read from parents whose children have benefitted

from such treatments as GFCF diet, chelation, etc. I still am

considering some of the other, biomedical treatments, but am a little

nervous about playing with his body chemistry.

One last point: We have another son due in January. We have decided

to vaccinate him, but we will administer the shots singularly.

Instead of doing the MMR, we will do M, then M, then R. Same with

DPT. Exercising some caution seems appropriate, but we certainly do

not want him to contract any of these diseases.

Thanks again for your thoughtful response, and I look forward to

hearing from more members of the group on these topics.

Steve

>

> Dear scd

>

> I would say most of us arrived at our convictions by doing

extensive

> research. This takes time and commitment.

>

> It is what each parent must do on his own or her own. That would

be the

> best path for you, rather than some of us defending ourselves,

>

> which clearly may spill over into personal, subjective and

emotional

> accounts.

>

> We certainly can assist you in your research .

>

> Here are some excellent resources:

>

> www.safeminds.org <http://www.safeminds.org/> ,

> www.generationrescue.org <http://www.generationrescue.org/> ,

> www.nationalautismassociation.org

> <http://www.nationalautismassociation.org/> www.autismone.org

> <http://www.autismone.org/>

>

> www.achamp.org <http://www.achamp.org/> www.nomercury.org

> <http://www.nomercury.org/> www.unlockingautism.org

> <http://www.unlockingautism.org/> , some studies funded by CAN,

> www.cureautismnow.org <http://www.cureautismnow.org/>

>

> google the Autism Research Institute, headed by Dr. Bernie

Rimland, and

> google his brainchild, DAN, Defeat Autism Now and their

conferences,

>

> google USAAA .The Asperger and Autism Association of America;

>

> google the work of Dr. Boyd Haley, Dr. M. Horning, Dr. Burbacher,

Dr.

> O'Hara,

>

> Dr. Mumper, Dr. Usman, Dr.

> Ayoub, Dr. Geier,

>

> Dr. Wakefield, Dr. Buttar, Mark

Blaxill,

> Sally Bernard, Binstock and countless others

>

> whose names you can find on the above websites as well as the

conference

> lists of DAN , USAAA,

>

> and Autism One . You should also review the articles and research

by

> Pringle, Dan Olmsted, Rep. Weldon, F.Kennedy, Jr,

among others

>

> Research the Merk Memo Simpsonwood...but

these

> things are on the above website; you must search and research

>

> You should also research conflict of

interest

> within CDC, FDA, NIH and other government agencies, involving

>

> among other entities, pharmaceuticals,

>

> You have your work cur out for you, but as you

are

> serious about uncovering the truth,

>

> you will welcome the work,

>

> The evidence will speak

for itself

> Suzanne Messina REAACH

>

> _____

>

> From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On

Behalf Of

> scd7131

> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:49 AM

> EOHarm

> Subject: Not understanding

>

> Hi all -

> I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is

> autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my

> knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for

> my son's disability.

> I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving

to

> be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by

> environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in

> vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling

> evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies

> have been published that have failed to show the link between

> vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand

> why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the

> decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment

> options stems from this fact.

> Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to

> question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I

certainly

> do not know what causes autism and have no special information

which

> would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong.

It

> seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then,

> is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of

> the other?

>

October 27, 2006

To add to Suzanne's comments - you might find it helpful to begin at

F.A.I.R. Autism Media. There you'll find video interviews with many

of the parents, researchers and doctors Suzanne mentioned (and more).

http://www.autismmedia.org/

Suzanne's right -- it will take time, but it's time well spent.

>

Dr. Boyd Haley, Dr. M. Horning, Dr. Burbacher, Dr. O'Hara,

Dr. Mumper, Dr. Usman, Dr. Ayoub, Dr. Geier,

Dr. Wakefield, Dr. Buttar, Mark Blaxill,

October 27, 2006

Thank you, . I'll check that out.

Steve

> >

> Dr. Boyd Haley, Dr. M. Horning, Dr. Burbacher, Dr. O'Hara,

> Dr. Mumper, Dr. Usman, Dr. Ayoub, Dr. Geier,

> Dr. Wakefield, Dr. Buttar, Mark Blaxill,

>

October 27, 2006

A few suggestions I have for you so you will gain more

knowledge to decide whether or not your son regressed

into autism from vaccines that contained mercury.

1. You have already read Evidence of Harm

2. Go to the website www.generationrescue.org

3. Go to the website

www.autismresearchinstitute.com You may want to watch

the recovered kids videos. Also look up the list of

DAN (Defeat Autism Now) doctors and make an appt with

one for your child. A doctor may help determine the

cause of your sons autism. You can do a challenge test

to determine if your child has excessive amounts of

metals including mercury

4. Join some of the where parents

are actively chelating (removing the toxins ) their

children and seeing gains in language, social,

awareness and overall health. (chelatingkids2 and

autismmercury are two such groups).

Best wishes to you and your family!

--- scd7131 <steve.dionne@...> wrote:

> Hi all -

> I am a new member of this discussion group. My son

> is 5 and is

> autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to

> expand my

> knowledge base so I can determine the best course of

> treatments for

> my son's disability.

> I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I

> am perceiving to

> be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism

> is caused by

> environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by

> thimerosal in

> vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented

> compelling

> evidence that this is the case. I also know that

> numerous studies

> have been published that have failed to show the

> link between

> vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am

> trying to understand

> why a large group of clearly intelligent people have

> arrived at the

> decision that this is a fact, and that their choice

> of treatment

> options stems from this fact.

> Please understand that I am not trying to cause an

> argument or to

> question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this

> issue - I certainly

> do not know what causes autism and have no special

> information which

> would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is

> right or wrong. It

> seems to me that there is some conflicting science.

> So what, then,

> is causing this group to fall on one side of the

> debate instead of

> the other?

>

__________________________________________________

October 27, 2006

Thank you . I appreciate your helpful response.

Steve

>

> > Hi all -

> > I am a new member of this discussion group. My son

> > is 5 and is

> > autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to

> > expand my

> > knowledge base so I can determine the best course of

> > treatments for

> > my son's disability.

> > I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I

> > am perceiving to

> > be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism

> > is caused by

> > environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by

> > thimerosal in

> > vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented

> > compelling

> > evidence that this is the case. I also know that

> > numerous studies

> > have been published that have failed to show the

> > link between

> > vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am

> > trying to understand

> > why a large group of clearly intelligent people have

> > arrived at the

> > decision that this is a fact, and that their choice

> > of treatment

> > options stems from this fact.

> > Please understand that I am not trying to cause an

> > argument or to

> > question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this

> > issue - I certainly

> > do not know what causes autism and have no special

> > information which

> > would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is

> > right or wrong. It

> > seems to me that there is some conflicting science.

> > So what, then,

> > is causing this group to fall on one side of the

> > debate instead of

> > the other?

> >

>

> __________________________________________________

>

October 27, 2006

Steve asks:

"So I guess my 2 questions from that concern would be - a)does this group feel that the debate is closed, and that the issue has been settled? and does this group agree that not vaccinating children can have equally damaging results as vaccinating? Question B is not worded very well, but I hope you catch my meaning."

Having just a high school diploma, I would not presume to speak for this highly educated "group", but, in my own opinion, I do not believe the "debate" you speak of has happened? My grandson "regressed" about four years ago and I am still wating for that public "debate" to occur? In fact, there is nothing more this "joe six pack grandpa" wants, after four years, than to "have the issue settled".

Unfortunately, those that have both the opportunity and resources to "settle the issue" refuse to engage in "open public debate". Preferrably in a joint House/Sentate Hearing, under oath. The fact the CDC does not demand such a "public forum" to present their scientific evidence is clear evidence, to me, they are not confident their "evidence" will stand public scrutiny.

Instead, they prefer to expend their energies promoting "widely publicized studies" proclaiming my grandson's autism may have been caused by "older men having children" or "too much television watching".

So, the answer to question "A" is "No, the debate is not closed and the issue has not been settled."

---------------------- --------------------------- -----------------------------

I agree that question "B" is not "worded very well". The question asked is usually phrased: "Do the benefits outweigh the risks"? Well, as Socrates demanded of his students, that would require the person asking the question to "define" what he means by "benefits" and "risks"?

Such as:: Do the "benefits" of having our children avoid measles, mumps and rubella outweigh the possible "risk" of having them suffer life-long debilating conditions like autism, juvenile diabetes and rhumatoid arthritis.

Unfortunately, parents cannot answer the question. Only public health agencies responsible for regulating, recommending and approving childhood vaccines can provide the scientific evidence proving beyond any reasonable doubt their universal childhood vaccines have not contributed to the inexplicable rise in these life-long afflictions. Until/unless they provide such scientific evidence, the "issue" will remain unresolved.

Welcome to EOH and I truly appreciate your inquiries. It is from challenging my own beliefs that I reaffirm my convictions. Thanks.

October 27, 2006

Because of a number of things--

The "studies" presented by the other side are flawed almost to the point of being ridiculous. Those of us who have been around for six years have watched one of them get changed until the strong correlations between autism and thimerosal conveniently disappeared.

The symptoms of autism are identical to the symptoms of mercury poisoning. After you are on these groups long enough you hear variations of the same story over and over and over again.

Because mercury in causes these symptoms and mercury out takes them away. Pretty basic stuff.

Because if we were talking about lead poisoning from paint we wouldn't be having these ridiculous arguments. People would say, "Of course, they ate lead, they are showing symptoms of lead poisoning, and when you chelate the stuff out, the symptoms go away." Duh!

However, since we are talking about vaccines and fillings, two items that have HUGE amount of investments behind them, both emotional and financial, we have to protect the status quo.

I didn't believe the autism/mercury connection for months, until everything that my son had ever experienced kept going back to mercury. Mercury was the only answer that made sense after twenty years of looking for answers. I did NOT want this to be true!

Barb

Not understanding

Hi all - I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for my son's disability.I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies have been published that have failed to show the link between vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment options stems from this fact.Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly do not know what causes autism and have no special information which would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then, is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of the other?

October 27, 2006

Steve,

I think

everyone gave you great links and information to follow. Personally I had

questions right from the beginning because my son clearly regressed following

these vaccinations. However, I found that breaking down the questions

from the no connection side and looking at the opposing position of a possible

connection, was the most helpful. Like the still present question from

Scientists that Ethyl mercury’s molecules are too large to cross the

Blood brain barrier and how the Burbacher study proves that Ethyl mercury does

cross the BBB. I also could never find a good answer from mainstream as

to why so many boys. Boyd Haley’s study on the synergistic effects

of testosterone and mercury together, and their destruction of cells, as well

as the protective effect of estrogen on the cells. In breaking all of the

questions down I think the evidence is MUCH higher stacked on the

mercury/autism connection. The new video posted on Dr. Nataf’s

study of children with Autism and the statistical significant rates of mercury

burden is telling of the fact that they have too much mercury from somewhere.

The viral aspect

is most certainly another aspect to look at. The Methyl B-12/Valtrex

sight talks a lot about the viral overloads of our children. There is

most certainly a link to genetic susceptibility that you really should look

further into when having another child to think about. I had a 3 rd child

after my son had regressed and there were many questions of vaccines and how to

do it safely. I refused Hep B, waited 6 months, and began to do one at a

time and by the 3rd my daughter developed swallowing issues and food

intolerances. I will no longer ever feel guilty about not vaccinating

again. I so wanted to have my kids protected because of the fear but

because of the reactions of all of my children suffered and the information I

have sought out on the dangers I will no longer take the unnecessary risks of

vaccinations for my children. What am I trying to do instead? Build

their immunity with supplementation, food avoidance, ect. Whether to or

not is a personal choice and should be well researched and in that research

should include your family history, viral exposures, heavy metal exposures and autoimmune

issues.

Good luck to you and your son.

-

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of scd7131

Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006

4:49 PM

EOHarm

Subject: :RE: Re: Not

understanding

This is a very well-presented argument for adopting

this vaccination

schedule. Thanks for the link.

Steve

>

> http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/user_friendly.pdf

>

> Best article I have read on vaccinating your kids.

>

> JB

>

October 27, 2006

Thanks for the great insight, . I appreciate it.

-----Original Message-----From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ]On Behalf Of Chap 'n AliSent: Friday, October 27, 2006 2:42 PMEOHarm Subject: RE: Re: Not understanding

Steve,

I think everyone gave you great links and information to follow. Personally I had questions right from the beginning because my son clearly regressed following these vaccinations. However, I found that breaking down the questions from the no connection side and looking at the opposing position of a possible connection, was the most helpful. Like the still present question from Scientists that Ethyl mercury’s molecules are too large to cross the Blood brain barrier and how the Burbacher study proves that Ethyl mercury does cross the BBB. I also could never find a good answer from mainstream as to why so many boys. Boyd Haley’s study on the synergistic effects of testosterone and mercury together, and their destruction of cells, as well as the protective effect of estrogen on the cells. In breaking all of the questions down I think the evidence is MUCH higher stacked on the mercury/autism connection. The new video posted on Dr. Nataf’s study of children with Autism and the statistical significant rates of mercury burden is telling of the fact that they have too much mercury from somewhere.

The viral aspect is most certainly another aspect to look at. The Methyl B-12/Valtrex sight talks a lot about the viral overloads of our children. There is most certainly a link to genetic susceptibility that you really should look further into when having another child to think about. I had a 3 rd child after my son had regressed and there were many questions of vaccines and how to do it safely. I refused Hep B, waited 6 months, and began to do one at a time and by the 3rd my daughter developed swallowing issues and food intolerances. I will no longer ever feel guilty about not vaccinating again. I so wanted to have my kids protected because of the fear but because of the reactions of all of my children suffered and the information I have sought out on the dangers I will no longer take the unnecessary risks of vaccinations for my children. What am I trying to do instead? Build their immunity with supplementation, food avoidance, ect. Whether to or not is a personal choice and should be well researched and in that research should include your family history, viral exposures, heavy metal exposures and autoimmune issues.

Good luck to you and your son. -

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of scd7131Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 4:49 PMEOHarm Subject: :RE: Re: Not understanding

This is a very well-presented argument for adopting this vaccination schedule. Thanks for the link.Steve>> http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/user_friendly.pdf> > > Best article I have read on vaccinating your kids.> > JB>

October 28, 2006

Thanks for the response, Barb (I know my thanks are getting repetitive, but I do want to offer appreciation to everyone who has chosen to answer my questions).

Your response includes certain issues which are principle reasons for my skepticism mercury being a causal agent.

First, the similarities between mercury poisoning and autism symptoms. This is one of the first things I looked at when I began to explore this issue, and I found that exactly the opposite is true - there is very little similarity between mercury poisoning symptoms and autism symptoms. It seems to me that there are a few crossover symptoms, but not very many. I have, in my own mind, chalked this up to one being a medical diagnosis and one being a diagnosis of a psychological disorder, and that the psychiatric disorder does not "demand" a look at other co-existing physical symptoms, which are therefore left off the list of symptoms of autism. I am sure many of you have thought this through more carefully - can anyone help me to understand that aspect?

Secondly, your claim that the "studies" presented by the other side are tremendously flawed gives me pause. That is precisely what the members of the other side of the debate are claiming. I see flawed studies and some good studies in support of both sides, so I tend to throw out that argument until more information comes to light that can be deemed reliable. Not that all studies should be ignored, its just that this seems to me to be more of an emotionally-driven response than a reliable argument in favor of one position or another.

I also am seeing in your response the claim that "mercury out takes them (the symptoms) away." This is obviously the case with some kids, but just as obviously not the case with others. Is there consideration of the possibility that some but not all autism is caused by toxicity? Variable chelation results would seem to argue in favor of this position.

The last thing you mentioned is the "huge invesments" behind the vaccine and filling people. Well, the opposing argument would be that the Doctors and other medical practitioners who are prescribing some of the biomedical therapies I have been studying also have financial gain at stake. Perhaps on a smaller scale, but I actually think it is easier for an individual or small group of individuals to perpetrate a fraud than it is for a combination of huge corporations and governmental agencies to perpetrate a fraud. When you think of the number of variables that would prevent huge oprganizations like those from keeping "secrets", it is almost beyond the realm of imagining that such a grand-scale crime could be intentionally committed. Additionally, trial lawyers stand to gain tremendously from findings that would indicate that vaccine manufacturers are responsible for knowingly damaging many thousands of children. In my estimation, it would be the single largest financial "win" in the history of the world's legal system. And trial lawyers are notoriously aggressive about throwing money into research that will support their positions. So the argument of "taint" or "bias" works against both sides of the debate equally and favors neither.

I am sorry for my long-winded monologue here, its just that your response to my inquiry has really touched on the "magic buttons" that result in my still-present skepticism. Let me reiterate that I do have an open mind on this, and I welcome anyone to respond to some of the issues I am bringing up. I know these are probably unwelcome topics that have been rehashed within this group over the past 18 months or so, but I would welcome any efforts to dispel my skepticism. Again, I am not here to argue, as I would never attempt to foist my opinions on any member of this group. I am appreciative of being able to participate in the discussion, and respect the responses I have received regardless of whether I accept them or not.

Steve

-----Original Message-----From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ]On Behalf Of jromkemaSent: Friday, October 27, 2006 2:22 PMEOHarm Subject: Re: Not understanding

Because of a number of things--

The "studies" presented by the other side are flawed almost to the point of being ridiculous. Those of us who have been around for six years have watched one of them get changed until the strong correlations between autism and thimerosal conveniently disappeared.

The symptoms of autism are identical to the symptoms of mercury poisoning. After you are on these groups long enough you hear variations of the same story over and over and over again.

Because mercury in causes these symptoms and mercury out takes them away. Pretty basic stuff.

Because if we were talking about lead poisoning from paint we wouldn't be having these ridiculous arguments. People would say, "Of course, they ate lead, they are showing symptoms of lead poisoning, and when you chelate the stuff out, the symptoms go away." Duh!

However, since we are talking about vaccines and fillings, two items that have HUGE amount of investments behind them, both emotional and financial, we have to protect the status quo.

I didn't believe the autism/mercury connection for months, until everything that my son had ever experienced kept going back to mercury. Mercury was the only answer that made sense after twenty years of looking for answers. I did NOT want this to be true!

Barb

Not understanding

Hi all - I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for my son's disability.I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies have been published that have failed to show the link between vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment options stems from this fact.Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly do not know what causes autism and have no special information which would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then, is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of the other?

October 28, 2006

Steve,

I would like to recommend that you do more research and ask more questions. From your statement that you will be administering the DPT separately, I can tell that you are not as well versed in the vaccine information as you need to be in order to make a totally informed decision. There is no separate shot for "P", Pertussis. There are separate shots for "T" Tetanus and "DT" Diptheria/Tetanus. Pertussis is only available in combination with the other two. The separate Tetanus shot still contains thimerosal, the preservative which is 50% mercury. there is no Thimerosal free choice.

Have you visited www.safeminds.org or www.909shots.com? Have you read "Autism: A Unique form of Mercury poisoning" and read the book for which this list is named. If you really look at the information presented in the websites and the book, you will realize that there are many, many reasons to err on the side of caution and defer vaccination for your infant. Get familiar with the incidence rates of the diseases in question to understand that the risk has now flipped and it is now riskier to get the vaccination than it is to catch the disease.

I strongly urge you to do more research before you make your final decision, there is just too much at stake. I will tell you that my position is that I will never give my son another vaccine, nor will I ever get another vaccine for the rest of my life. When the smallpox and anthrax issues were emerging, I was positive that I would take the risk and not give or receive those vaccines. I am a Director of Accounting in the NYC area, I own my own home and have a retirement fund. I am not out there on the fringe.

Good luck,

Heidi

From: "scd7131" <steve.dionne@...>Reply-EOHarm To: EOHarm Subject: Re: Not understandingDate: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:07:30 -0000

Suzanne - Thank you for your thoughtful response, and thank you also for taking the time to compile the various resources and links. I appreciate also the words of encouragement.I have done what I consider to be extensive research (through many of the provided links) - it has been two years since my son was diagnosed, and I have been digging into this issue ever since (you all are very familiar with the all-consuming need to "know" that your approach is the best one for your child). Also, my college education was in neurophysiology (though I did not pursue that as a career), which provided a solid base of knowledge as a starting point - particularly in statistical analysis and what constitutes valid research results.In my studies I have found a large body of what I would consider circumstantial evidence that there may be a link between vaccinations and autism - but I have also found an equally large body of statistically sound research that would indicate that there is no link. In my current view, the information would indicate not that there is no link, but that no link has been proven. I have a very open mind on this topic, though, and am trying to gain some additional perspective.Epidemiological evidence seems to be the strongest in support of the link, but it is the weakest form of research (although the only choice in many cases), and in no way proves causation. I try to minimize the value in my own judgment process of epidemiological evidence, regardless of which way it points us. It does occur to me that, if there is a link finally proven between autism and vaccinations, the cause may actually be auto-immune response as opposed to toxicity. My son, for example, has had two episodes of shingles, which are a result of his immune system mis-handling (for lack of a better term) the chicken pox vaccine. So it would seem that his auto-immune response is atypical at least in that case. He does not have any of the "gut" issues that I have read and heard so much about, and the lack of that has caused my wife and I to adhere to behavioral modification therapy (ABA, speech, OT, (therapeutic horsemanship). He has improved in many ways. If I were to list the areas of improvement, it would sound a lot like the success stories I read from parents whose children have benefitted from such treatments as GFCF diet, chelation, etc. I still am considering some of the other, biomedical treatments, but am a little nervous about playing with his body chemistry.One last point: We have another son due in January. We have decided to vaccinate him, but we will administer the shots singularly. Instead of doing the MMR, we will do M, then M, then R. Same with DPT. Exercising some caution seems appropriate, but we certainly do not want him to contract any of these diseases.Thanks again for your thoughtful response, and I look forward to hearing from more members of the group on these topics.Steve >> Dear scd > > > > I would say most of us arrived at our convictions by doing extensive> research. This takes time and commitment. > > It is what each parent must do on his own or her own. That would be the> best path for you, rather than some of us defending ourselves,> > which clearly may spill over into personal, subjective and emotional> accounts. > > > > We certainly can assist you in your research .> > Here are some excellent resources:> > > > www.safeminds.org <http://www.safeminds.org/> ,> www.generationrescue.org <http://www.generationrescue.org/> ,> www.nationalautismassociation.org> <http://www.nationalautismassociation.org/> www.autismone.org> <http://www.autismone.org/> > > www.achamp.org <http://www.achamp.org/> www.nomercury.org> <http://www.nomercury.org/> www.unlockingautism.org> <http://www.unlockingautism.org/> , some studies funded by CAN,> www.cureautismnow.org <http://www.cureautismnow.org/> > > > > google the Autism Research Institute, headed by Dr. Bernie Rimland, and> google his brainchild, DAN, Defeat Autism Now and their conferences,> > > > google USAAA .The Asperger and Autism Association of America;> > > > google the work of Dr. Boyd Haley, Dr. M. Horning, Dr. Burbacher, Dr. > O'Hara,> > Dr. Mumper, Dr. Usman, Dr. > Ayoub, Dr. Geier,> > Dr. Wakefield, Dr. Buttar, Mark Blaxill,> Sally Bernard, Binstock and countless others> > whose names you can find on the above websites as well as the conference> lists of DAN , USAAA,> > and Autism One . You should also review the articles and research by > Pringle, Dan Olmsted, Rep. Weldon, F.Kennedy, Jr, among others > > > > Research the Merk Memo Simpsonwood...but these> things are on the above website; you must search and research> > > > You should also research conflict of interest> within CDC, FDA, NIH and other government agencies, involving > > among other entities, pharmaceuticals, > > > > You have your work cur out for you, but as you are> serious about uncovering the truth, > > you will welcome the work,> > > > > The evidence will speak for itself> Suzanne Messina REAACH> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of> scd7131> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:49 AM> EOHarm > Subject: Not understanding> > > > Hi all - > I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is > autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my > knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for > my son's disability.> I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to > be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by > environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in > vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling > evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies > have been published that have failed to show the link between > vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand > why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the > decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment > options stems from this fact.> Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to > question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly > do not know what causes autism and have no special information which > would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It > seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then, > is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of > the other?>

October 28, 2006

Steve,

I would like to recommend that you do more research and ask more questions. From your statement that you will be administering the DPT separately, I can tell that you are not as well versed in the vaccine information as you need to be in order to make a totally informed decision. There is no separate shot for "P", Pertussis. There are separate shots for "T" Tetanus and "DT" Diptheria/Tetanus. Pertussis is only available in combination with the other two. The separate Tetanus shot still contains thimerosal, the preservative which is 50% mercury. there is no Thimerosal free choice.

Have you visited www.safeminds.org or www.909shots.com? Have you read "Autism: A Unique form of Mercury poisoning" and read the book for which this list is named. If you really look at the information presented in the websites and the book, you will realize that there are many, many reasons to err on the side of caution and defer vaccination for your infant. Get familiar with the incidence rates of the diseases in question to understand that the risk has now flipped and it is now riskier to get the vaccination than it is to catch the disease.

I strongly urge you to do more research before you make your final decision, there is just too much at stake. I will tell you that my position is that I will never give my son another vaccine, nor will I ever get another vaccine for the rest of my life. When the smallpox and anthrax issues were emerging, I was positive that I would take the risk and not give or receive those vaccines. I am a Director of Accounting in the NYC area, I own my own home and have a retirement fund. I am not out there on the fringe.

Good luck,

Heidi

From: "scd7131" <steve.dionne@...>Reply-EOHarm To: EOHarm Subject: Re: Not understandingDate: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:07:30 -0000

Suzanne - Thank you for your thoughtful response, and thank you also for taking the time to compile the various resources and links. I appreciate also the words of encouragement.I have done what I consider to be extensive research (through many of the provided links) - it has been two years since my son was diagnosed, and I have been digging into this issue ever since (you all are very familiar with the all-consuming need to "know" that your approach is the best one for your child). Also, my college education was in neurophysiology (though I did not pursue that as a career), which provided a solid base of knowledge as a starting point - particularly in statistical analysis and what constitutes valid research results.In my studies I have found a large body of what I would consider circumstantial evidence that there may be a link between vaccinations and autism - but I have also found an equally large body of statistically sound research that would indicate that there is no link. In my current view, the information would indicate not that there is no link, but that no link has been proven. I have a very open mind on this topic, though, and am trying to gain some additional perspective.Epidemiological evidence seems to be the strongest in support of the link, but it is the weakest form of research (although the only choice in many cases), and in no way proves causation. I try to minimize the value in my own judgment process of epidemiological evidence, regardless of which way it points us. It does occur to me that, if there is a link finally proven between autism and vaccinations, the cause may actually be auto-immune response as opposed to toxicity. My son, for example, has had two episodes of shingles, which are a result of his immune system mis-handling (for lack of a better term) the chicken pox vaccine. So it would seem that his auto-immune response is atypical at least in that case. He does not have any of the "gut" issues that I have read and heard so much about, and the lack of that has caused my wife and I to adhere to behavioral modification therapy (ABA, speech, OT, (therapeutic horsemanship). He has improved in many ways. If I were to list the areas of improvement, it would sound a lot like the success stories I read from parents whose children have benefitted from such treatments as GFCF diet, chelation, etc. I still am considering some of the other, biomedical treatments, but am a little nervous about playing with his body chemistry.One last point: We have another son due in January. We have decided to vaccinate him, but we will administer the shots singularly. Instead of doing the MMR, we will do M, then M, then R. Same with DPT. Exercising some caution seems appropriate, but we certainly do not want him to contract any of these diseases.Thanks again for your thoughtful response, and I look forward to hearing from more members of the group on these topics.Steve >> Dear scd > > > > I would say most of us arrived at our convictions by doing extensive> research. This takes time and commitment. > > It is what each parent must do on his own or her own. That would be the> best path for you, rather than some of us defending ourselves,> > which clearly may spill over into personal, subjective and emotional> accounts. > > > > We certainly can assist you in your research .> > Here are some excellent resources:> > > > www.safeminds.org <http://www.safeminds.org/> ,> www.generationrescue.org <http://www.generationrescue.org/> ,> www.nationalautismassociation.org> <http://www.nationalautismassociation.org/> www.autismone.org> <http://www.autismone.org/> > > www.achamp.org <http://www.achamp.org/> www.nomercury.org> <http://www.nomercury.org/> www.unlockingautism.org> <http://www.unlockingautism.org/> , some studies funded by CAN,> www.cureautismnow.org <http://www.cureautismnow.org/> > > > > google the Autism Research Institute, headed by Dr. Bernie Rimland, and> google his brainchild, DAN, Defeat Autism Now and their conferences,> > > > google USAAA .The Asperger and Autism Association of America;> > > > google the work of Dr. Boyd Haley, Dr. M. Horning, Dr. Burbacher, Dr. > O'Hara,> > Dr. Mumper, Dr. Usman, Dr. > Ayoub, Dr. Geier,> > Dr. Wakefield, Dr. Buttar, Mark Blaxill,> Sally Bernard, Binstock and countless others> > whose names you can find on the above websites as well as the conference> lists of DAN , USAAA,> > and Autism One . You should also review the articles and research by > Pringle, Dan Olmsted, Rep. Weldon, F.Kennedy, Jr, among others > > > > Research the Merk Memo Simpsonwood...but these> things are on the above website; you must search and research> > > > You should also research conflict of interest> within CDC, FDA, NIH and other government agencies, involving > > among other entities, pharmaceuticals, > > > > You have your work cur out for you, but as you are> serious about uncovering the truth, > > you will welcome the work,> > > > > The evidence will speak for itself> Suzanne Messina REAACH> > > > > > > > > > _____ > > From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of> scd7131> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:49 AM> EOHarm > Subject: Not understanding> > > > Hi all - > I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is > autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my > knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for > my son's disability.> I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to > be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by > environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in > vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling > evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies > have been published that have failed to show the link between > vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand > why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the > decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment > options stems from this fact.> Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to > question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly > do not know what causes autism and have no special information which > would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It > seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then, > is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of > the other?>

October 28, 2006

You are still are not citing specific

studies that you say are leading you to your beliefs. What studies,.

Steve? Suzanne

From:

EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of Steve Dionne

Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006

6:18 PM

EOHarm

Subject: RE: Not

understanding

Thanks for the response, Barb (I know my

thanks are getting repetitive, but I do want to offer appreciation to everyone

who has chosen to answer my questions).

Your response includes certain issues

which are principle reasons for my skepticism mercury being a causal agent.

First, the similarities between mercury

poisoning and autism symptoms. This is one of the first things I looked

at when I began to explore this issue, and I found that exactly the opposite is

true - there is very little similarity between mercury poisoning symptoms and

autism symptoms. It seems to me that there are a few crossover

symptoms, but not very many. I have, in my own mind, chalked this up to

one being a medical diagnosis and one being a diagnosis of a psychological

disorder, and that the psychiatric disorder does not " demand " a look

at other co-existing physical symptoms, which are therefore left off the list

of symptoms of autism. I am sure many of you have thought this through

more carefully - can anyone help me to understand that aspect?

Secondly, your claim that the

" studies " presented by the other side are tremendously flawed

gives me pause. That is precisely what the members of the other side of

the debate are claiming. I see flawed studies and some good studies in support

of both sides, so I tend to throw out that argument until more information

comes to light that can be deemed reliable. Not that all studies

should be ignored, its just that this seems to me to be more of an

emotionally-driven response than a reliable argument in favor of one

position or another.

I also am seeing in your response the

claim that " mercury out takes them (the symptoms) away. "

This is obviously the case with some kids, but just as obviously not

the case with others. Is there consideration of the possibility that

some

but not all

autism is caused by toxicity? Variable chelation results would seem to

argue in favor of this position.

The last thing you mentioned is the

" huge invesments " behind the vaccine and filling people. Well,

the opposing argument would be that the Doctors and other medical practitioners

who are prescribing some of the biomedical therapies I have been studying also

have financial gain at stake. Perhaps on a smaller scale, but I actually

think it is easier for an individual or small group of individuals to

perpetrate a fraud than it is for a combination of huge corporations and

governmental agencies to perpetrate a fraud. When you think of the number

of variables that would prevent huge oprganizations like those from keeping

" secrets " , it is almost beyond the realm of imagining that such a

grand-scale crime could be intentionally committed. Additionally, trial

lawyers stand to gain tremendously from findings that would indicate that

vaccine manufacturers are responsible for knowingly damaging many thousands of

children. In my estimation, it would be the single largest financial

" win " in the history of the world's legal system. And trial

lawyers are notoriously aggressive about throwing money into research that

will support their positions. So the argument of " taint " or

" bias " works against both sides of the debate equally and favors

neither.

I am sorry for my long-winded monologue

here, its just that your response to my inquiry has really touched on the

" magic buttons " that result in my still-present skepticism. Let

me reiterate that I do have an open mind on this, and I welcome anyone to

respond to some of the issues I am bringing up. I know these

are probably unwelcome topics that have been rehashed within this group

over the past 18 months or so, but I would welcome any efforts to dispel my

skepticism. Again, I am not here to argue, as I would never attempt to

foist my opinions on any member of this group. I am appreciative of being

able to participate in the discussion, and respect the responses I have

received regardless of whether I accept them or not.

Steve

Re: Not

understanding

Because of a number of things--

The " studies " presented by the other side are flawed almost

to the point of being ridiculous. Those of us who have been around for

six years have watched one of them get changed until the strong correlations

between autism and thimerosal conveniently disappeared.

The symptoms of autism are identical to the symptoms of mercury

poisoning. After you are on these groups long enough you hear variations

of the same story over and over and over again.

Because mercury in causes these symptoms and mercury out takes

them away. Pretty basic stuff.

Because if we were talking about lead poisoning from paint we wouldn't

be having these ridiculous arguments. People would say, " Of course,

they ate lead, they are showing symptoms of lead poisoning, and when you

chelate the stuff out, the symptoms go away. " Duh!

However, since we are talking about vaccines and fillings, two

items that have HUGE amount of investments behind them, both emotional and

financial, we have to protect the status quo.

I didn't believe the autism/mercury connection for months,

until everything that my son had ever experienced kept going back to

mercury. Mercury was the only answer that made sense after twenty years

of looking for answers. I did NOT want this to be true!

Barb

Not

understanding

Hi all -

I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is

autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my

knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for

my son's disability.

I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to

be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by

environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in

vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling

evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies

have been published that have failed to show the link between

vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand

why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the

decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment

options stems from this fact.

Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to

question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly

do not know what causes autism and have no special information which

would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It

seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then,

is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of

the other?

October 28, 2006

Sir -

I also sincerely hope for a public debate and ensuing exposure of

the facts. I remain unconvinced that the facts will support the

Autism/MMR link, but I certainly believe that it is possible. I am

no expert on this, just a struggling parent. Additionally, I pay no

heed (other than cursory evaluation) of these other research

results you mentioned. I do not feel they are valid, and as I

stated in an earlier post, I am not a big believer in the

effectiveness of epidemiological studies as beacons for causation.

They can provide some " markers " which later research can focus on,

but cannot produce cause/effect results such as " TV Watching Causes

Autism " . This type of study is just a good example of a grand-

standing pseudo-researcher playing up to a sensationalistic media.

Thanks,

Steve

>

> Steve asks:

>

> " So I guess my 2 questions

> from that concern would be - a)does this group feel that the

debate

> is closed, and that the issue has been settled? and does this

> group agree that not vaccinating children can have equally

damaging

> results as vaccinating? Question B is not worded very well, but I

> hope you catch my meaning. "

>

> Having just a high school diploma, I would not presume to speak

for this

> highly educated " group " , but, in my own opinion, I do not believe

the " debate "

> you speak of has happened? My grandson " regressed " about four

years ago and I

> am still wating for that public " debate " to occur? In fact,

there is

> nothing more this " joe six pack grandpa " wants, after four years,

than to " have the

> issue settled " .

>

> Unfortunately, those that have both the opportunity and resources

to " settle

> the issue " refuse to engage in " open public debate " . Preferrably

in a joint

> House/Sentate Hearing, under oath. The fact the CDC does not

demand such a

> " public forum " to present their scientific evidence is clear

evidence, to

> me, they are not confident their " evidence " will stand public

scrutiny.

>

> Instead, they prefer to expend their energies promoting " widely

publicized

> studies " proclaiming my grandson's autism may have been caused

by " older men

> having children " or " too much television watching " .

>

> So, the answer to question " A " is " No, the debate is not closed

and the

> issue has not been settled. "

> ---------------------- ------------------------

---

> -----------------------------

>

> I agree that question " B " is not " worded very well " . The

question asked is

> usually phrased: " Do the benefits outweigh the risks " ? Well, as

Socrates

> demanded of his students, that would require the person asking

the question to

> " define " what he means by " benefits " and " risks " ?

>

> Such as:: Do the " benefits " of having our children avoid

measles, mumps and

> rubella outweigh the possible " risk " of having them suffer life-

long

> debilating conditions like autism, juvenile diabetes and

rhumatoid arthritis.

>

> Unfortunately, parents cannot answer the question. Only public

health

> agencies responsible for regulating, recommending and approving

childhood vaccines

> can provide the scientific evidence proving beyond any reasonable

doubt

> their universal childhood vaccines have not contributed to the

inexplicable rise

> in these life-long afflictions. Until/unless they provide such

scientific

> evidence, the " issue " will remain unresolved.

>

> Welcome to EOH and I truly appreciate your inquiries. It is from

> challenging my own beliefs that I reaffirm my convictions.

Thanks.

>

October 28, 2006

Steve,

Whether our job is to convince you or not may be up for debate. I

personally have a strange feeling you are not here to find out any

truths, a little too adamant about repeating over and over that you

are just a parent looking for the truth. But that is just my gut

feeling, I could be totally wrong. You appear to want to play the

devils advocate, and seem pretty adamant about your positions

already. If I am wrong then...

This is a journey you must make and you will decide what you will

from the available information. Just as in a court of law you have

to decide who is more believable also, who has what to gain. You

seem to think that DAN doctors have as much to gain as big pharma in

presenting 'Their side' but it is DAN doctors who have stuck their

necks out, been investigated, ridiculed, risked their very jobs and

reputations to help our kids. It's not exactly an even match.

If you want to investigate MMR/Autism you really need to read the

research done by Dr. Yazbak. A huge number of us fit his research,

that us moms have our own immune system problems, never develop

titers to MMR so are given it over and over and over and over,

inlcuding after every birth (you wouldn't want to risk rubella if

you want to have another child) then our children get their own MMR

and wham they are instantly autistic. Whether this is the MMR alone

or after mega doses of thimerisol that set them up is still

debatable. A friend of mine got vaccinated with many vaccines in

nursing school while she was pregnant but before she knew she was

pregnant and Dr. Yazbak told her the odds were not good. And, they

were not, her child has been diagnosed with Autism.

The epidemiological studies belong to the other side. All the

science showing the devastating toxicity of thimerisol as a vaccine

additive are not epidemiological. There are links below.

We know that the original Verstraeten study showed a correlation

between thimerisol and autism greater than the connection between

smoking and lung disease. We also know that the generational

changes were so obvious that it was intended to lessen the numbers

and the impact. Adding in 1 to 3 years olds, knowing there would

not be diagnosis on these kids yet, for the most part. Then in

another generation adding in the 17,000 kids that had originally

been excluded because they were born with a birth defect. That is

why their epidemiological studies are so bad.

For me it's never been hard to understand or know the truth. My

child collapsed after her vaccines and was autistic from that point

forward. It was not " around " the same time, nor " just coincidental "

but a direct and immediate result, no questions asked, and no one

has ever denied that my daughters autism was caused by the vaccines.

Why is it such a huge leap that it happens a day later or 48 hours

later or even two weeks later? They know that vaccines CAN cause

Autism, they just refuse to admit that it does in most cases.

What is your explanation or reasoning with yourself when our

children test toxic for mercury? How do you reason with children

that recover with biomedical treatment of their immune system

problems, gut issues, chelation, and other treatments. The numbers

are growing and growing. I have a recoverd child and presented at

the DAN conference this month in Seattle. We went from severely

autistic to 100% mainstreamed and independent. I know the truth.

Also the entire issue doesn't have to be some complex conspiracy

theory with millions involved. It is simply business as usual, use

bogus science to claim effectiveness and safety, tell the lie often

enough until everyone believes it, even those working to invent more

and better drugs and vaccines, and always deny and refute anything

that would affect your profit margin. I am sure many in the

business really do believe they are doing what's best for children.

It doesn't take planning or collusion it is a way of life, big

pharma educates and gifts young doctors while in training and even

later so they are never going to question the status quo, plus

vaccines are for some their bread and butter. It is very complex,

and you will either find the truth or you will not.

If you have read Evidence of Harm you know it is the best

circumstancial case ever put together. They knew, they didn't care

and damaged our kids anyway. Others can say the jury is out, but I

know better. Over five years of research, I have learned more than

I ever wanted to about the entire vaccine belief system, and natural

disease, lifelong immunity and the flawed belief of how disease is

and is not caused as well as its purpose.

Perhaps the journey must be made on your own and then join up with

those of like minds. I haven't heard any new arguments from the

other side for a long long time now, just the same old lies and

denials from those that seem to have the media in their pocket.

Hope you find your answers. If you have an autistic child the

sooner you act the better the potential outcome. It is a very

difficult journey though, and I know it is not for everyone.

Kendra

Links below...happy reading

As we added more and more vaccines with unconscionable levels of

mercury, the autism rate exploded.

The CDC calls this a coincidence and has the easily manipulated

population studies to prove it. They don't however, have a single

toxicological study done on the mercury used in vaccines that shows

it's safe to inject into children. They don't even have records of

the testing done on the mercury-based vaccine preservative,

thimerosal, before it was put into use. That's because there was

none.

This is the real story of mercury use in vaccines that never gets

covered by the press:

Thimerosal goes back 75 years. It was invented and tested Eli Lilly

Pharmaceutical Company in 1930. The one study done on thimerosal

was done by Eli Lilly on 22 adult patients suffering from

meningitis. There was no chance for follow-up to observe long-term

effects, as all of the patients died. Even if follow-up had been

possible, damage to the developing brains of very young children

would have remained an unknown. Eli Lilly said it was safe and the

medical community just accepted it. After the creation of the FDA,

its use was simply continued. This is an unconscionable oversight

failure and calls any safety claim into question.

In his book, Evidence of Harm, journalist Kirby points out

that " ...many researchers had sent the company [Eli Lilly] documents

dating back to the 1930's, each raising a red flag about

thimerosal. " (EOH 207-209). Mr. Kirby chronologically lists over

70 years of scientific research on the damaging and deadly effects

of thimerosal that was willfully ignored by Eli Lilly and the

CDC.http://www.evidenceofharm.com/ Our CDC and FDA should be

utterly embarrassed to make safety claims based on such a pathetic

history of oversight.

While the CDC says they haven't seen anything linking mercury in

vaccines to autism, there are volumes of research findings on the

deadly effects of thimerosal. Do a search for Dr. Boyd Haley,

University of Kentucky; Dr. Mady Hornig, Columbia University, Dr.

Burbacher, University of Washington; Dr. Mark Geier,

President of The Genetic Centers of America and Geier, Vice

President of The Institute of Chronic Illnesses, and Dr. Jill ,

University of Arkansas. They are just a handful of the well-

credentialed scientists whose work links thimerosal to neurological

damage in our children.

Research on the effects of thimerosal can also be found on this link:

http://www.generationrescue.org/evidence_reports.html'

The vast majority of the flu vaccine still contains mercury. This

vaccine is recommended for children from six months to five years

old and for pregnant women at all stages of pregnancy. A child (up

to age three) receives a pediatric vaccine with 12.5 mcg of mercury,

an amount that can only be safely processed by someone weighing 275

pounds according to the EPA. A month later they get another 12.5

booster. A pregnant woman receives the adult vaccine with 25 mcg of

mercury, meant for someone weighing 550 pounds. This mercury easily

passes the placental barrier and enters the fetus whose brain is

just developing.

New Jersey physician, Dr. Lawrence D. Rosen, in Old Tappan, NJ wrote

that he's tried to get mercury-free flu vaccines for his patients

without success. Most doctors aren't concerned with the high

mercury content since the CDC has shown no preference.

Dr. Rosen's email: <ldrdoc@...>

One in every 166 children now has a diagnosis of autism. Twenty

years ago, it was one in 10,000. Furthermore, one in every six

schoolchildren now has some type of learning problem like attention

deficit. That's an epidemic increase, yet little is said about all

the autism now overwhelming our school by the Centers for Disease

Control. This is the agency that is supposed to be the watchdog of

the country's health, but they're more concerned about a possible

bird flu pandemic than an epidemic of autism among our children.

Eighty percent of autistic Americans are under the age of eighteen.

Can you possibility imagine the day when one in every 166 eighteen

year olds is going disability FOR LIFE WITH AUTISM? By 2010, we'll

see the beginning of the huge aging out of the mercury generation.

The words of Bono of the National Autism Association should be

sounding an alarm. She recently said,

" As those children reach adulthood, the U.S. is ill-equipped to care

for them. Not only do we not have enough services for adults now,

the light at the end of the tunnel is a train. ly, we don't

know what we're going to do. "

Bono's email: <ldbono@...>

There are so many people who have the credentials to speak as

experts on this subject. Some have been featured on news reports.

Boyd E. Haley, PhD <behaley@...>;

Leading international expert and author on mercury toxicity.

Kirby <dkirby@...>;

http://www.evidenceofharm.com/

Journalist, author of Evidence of Harm

Dan Olmsted, <dolmsted@...>;

UPI editor and author of

The Age of Autism <http://www.theageofautism.com/>

Ken Stoller, MD <hbotnm@...>;

Pediatrician, Santa Fe, NM

works on recovering children from autism

ED YAZBAK

Ayoub, MD <raypoke@...>

Radiologist, Springfield, IL

helped passed IL bill to ban thimerosal from children's vaccines in

IL.

October 28, 2006

Suzanne,

Here is a very good example of the type of study I am referring to

that refutes evidence of any link between autism and either MMR or

thimerosal.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/e139#R42

This study was done outside the U.S., and had nothing to do with

CDC. It was done in Canada, where universal health care allows for

much more accurate collection of data due to uniformity of

methodology (as opposed to the widely-cited California studies which

relied upon data collected haphazardly at the school district

level). The study distinguishes between MMR and thimerosal. It

specifically addresses the Geier studies, as well as EOH and the

Kennedy article in Rolling Stone magazine. I fail to see any

inherent bias in the study, or any reason to believe that the author

is attempting to perpetrate a lie or prolong a fraud upon the

world's population to benefit a few drug-manufacturing executives.

This study represents, to me, the type of information that any open-

minded person would have to consider in determining their position

on this issue.

I am not going so far as to say this study is perfect or totally

accurate. I do not buy it " hook, line, and sinker " . I feel

strongly that much, much more research needs to be done. I

desperately want to know what causes autism to occur.

At the same time, I feel no need whatsoever to blame anyone for my

son's condition. I also remain hesitant to introduce any treatments

which could, in the long term, prove to be harmful in ways I cannot

presently anticipate.

Having said that, I respect and admire the responses I have received

on this message board. I hope many of you will apply a critical eye

to this study, as you have done with others, and help me to learn

more about this issue. I have learned a lot today, which is what I

set out to do, and you all are responsible for that. I am really

pleased with the graciousness with which my " devil's advocate "

position has been met.

Steve

>

> You are still are not citing specific studies that you say are

leading you

> to your beliefs. What studies,. Steve? Suzanne

>

> _____

>

> From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On

Behalf Of

> Steve Dionne

> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 6:18 PM

> EOHarm

> Subject: RE: Not understanding

>

> Thanks for the response, Barb (I know my thanks are getting

repetitive, but

> I do want to offer appreciation to everyone who has chosen to

answer my

> questions).

>

> Your response includes certain issues which are principle reasons

for my

> skepticism mercury being a causal agent.

>

> First, the similarities between mercury poisoning and autism

symptoms. This

> is one of the first things I looked at when I began to explore

this issue,

> and I found that exactly the opposite is true - there is very

little

> similarity between mercury poisoning symptoms and autism

symptoms. It seems

> to me that there are a few crossover symptoms, but not very many.

I have,

> in my own mind, chalked this up to one being a medical diagnosis

and one

> being a diagnosis of a psychological disorder, and that the

psychiatric

> disorder does not " demand " a look at other co-existing physical

symptoms,

> which are therefore left off the list of symptoms of autism. I am

sure many

> of you have thought this through more carefully - can anyone help

me to

> understand that aspect?

>

> Secondly, your claim that the " studies " presented by the other

side are

> tremendously flawed gives me pause. That is precisely what the

members of

> the other side of the debate are claiming. I see flawed studies

and some

> good studies in support of both sides, so I tend to throw out that

argument

> until more information comes to light that can be deemed

reliable. Not that

> all studies should be ignored, its just that this seems to me to

be more of

> an emotionally-driven response than a reliable argument in favor

of one

> position or another.

>

> I also am seeing in your response the claim that " mercury out

takes them

> (the symptoms) away. " This is obviously the case with some kids,

but just

> as obviously not the case with others. Is there consideration of

the

> possibility that some but not all autism is caused by toxicity?

Variable

> chelation results would seem to argue in favor of this position.

>

> The last thing you mentioned is the " huge invesments " behind the

vaccine and

> filling people. Well, the opposing argument would be that the

Doctors and

> other medical practitioners who are prescribing some of the

biomedical

> therapies I have been studying also have financial gain at stake.

Perhaps

> on a smaller scale, but I actually think it is easier for an

individual or

> small group of individuals to perpetrate a fraud than it is for a

> combination of huge corporations and governmental agencies to

perpetrate a

> fraud. When you think of the number of variables that would

prevent huge

> oprganizations like those from keeping " secrets " , it is almost

beyond the

> realm of imagining that such a grand-scale crime could be

intentionally

> committed. Additionally, trial lawyers stand to gain tremendously

from

> findings that would indicate that vaccine manufacturers are

responsible for

> knowingly damaging many thousands of children. In my estimation,

it would

> be the single largest financial " win " in the history of the

world's legal

> system. And trial lawyers are notoriously aggressive about

throwing money

> into research that will support their positions. So the argument

of " taint "

> or " bias " works against both sides of the debate equally and

favors neither.

>

> I am sorry for my long-winded monologue here, its just that your

response to

> my inquiry has really touched on the " magic buttons " that result

in my

> still-present skepticism. Let me reiterate that I do have an open

mind on

> this, and I welcome anyone to respond to some of the issues I am

bringing

> up. I know these are probably unwelcome topics that have been

rehashed

> within this group over the past 18 months or so, but I would

welcome any

> efforts to dispel my skepticism. Again, I am not here to argue,

as I would

> never attempt to foist my opinions on any member of this group. I

am

> appreciative of being able to participate in the discussion, and

respect the

> responses I have received regardless of whether I accept them or

not.

>

> Steve

>

> Re: Not understanding

>

> Because of a number of things--

>

> The " studies " presented by the other side are flawed almost to the

point of

> being ridiculous. Those of us who have been around for six years

have

> watched one of them get changed until the strong correlations

between autism

> and thimerosal conveniently disappeared.

>

> The symptoms of autism are identical to the symptoms of mercury

poisoning.

> After you are on these groups long enough you hear variations of

the same

> story over and over and over again.

>

> Because mercury in causes these symptoms and mercury out takes

them away.

> Pretty basic stuff.

>

> Because if we were talking about lead poisoning from paint we

wouldn't be

> having these ridiculous arguments. People would say, " Of course,

they ate

> lead, they are showing symptoms of lead poisoning, and when you

chelate the

> stuff out, the symptoms go away. " Duh!

>

> However, since we are talking about vaccines and fillings, two

items that

> have HUGE amount of investments behind them, both emotional and

financial,

> we have to protect the status quo.

>

> I didn't believe the autism/mercury connection for months, until

everything

> that my son had ever experienced kept going back to mercury.

Mercury was

> the only answer that made sense after twenty years of looking for

answers.

> I did NOT want this to be true!

>

> Barb

>

> Not understanding

>

> Hi all -

> I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is

> autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my

> knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments

for

> my son's disability.

> I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving

to

> be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by

> environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in

> vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling

> evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies

> have been published that have failed to show the link between

> vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand

> why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at

the

> decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment

> options stems from this fact.

> Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to

> question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I

certainly

> do not know what causes autism and have no special information

which

> would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong.

It

> seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then,

> is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of

> the other?

>

October 28, 2006

If it's not the thimerosal, then why do the CDC and the politicians

avoid doing a real study of American children who got a typical dose of

thimerosal during the Nineties? Why was the CDC study presented at

Simpsonwood that showed a link between vaccination and autism rates

marked " Confidential " ? If you can read the minutes of the Simpsonwood

meeting and not smell a rat, then you have more faith in your fellow

man than I. Why wasn't a study of unvaccinated children done? I can't

prove the thimerosal made my son autistic, but until they stop avoiding

the issue, it certainly looks suspicious.

October 28, 2006

Kendra -

I am not quite sure how to respond to your post. If I do not ask

the questions, how am I supposed to arrive at the answers? Yours is

the first response I have received that vaguely resembles an

accusation of misrepresentation. I regret that my wording, tone, or

some other aspect of my inquries has caused you to doubt my

intentions that I am trying to gather information that will allow me

to make sound decisions for not only my 5 year old son who is

autistic, but also the son who is due in January. If I am violating

an established tenet of this discussion group by asking questions

about what led you to the belief that autism results from

vaccination, please tell me directly. I have no wish to offend

anyone in this group, and would rather fade away than start an

argument.

I will not concede yet on the fact that I retain doubts on the link

between autism and MMR or mercury toxicity. It would be dishonest

of me to do so. What better way for me to learn than to attempt to

discuss my doubts with a group who has obviously studied this issue

at great depth?

I have not assigned anyone the " job " of informing me, I have just

earnestly asked questions - specific questions, the answers to which

I am trying to get to.

Anyhow, apologies are offered, and I hope I have not ruffled any

feathers.

Steve

>

> Steve,

> Whether our job is to convince you or not may be up for debate. I

> personally have a strange feeling you are not here to find out any

> truths, a little too adamant about repeating over and over that

you

> are just a parent looking for the truth. But that is just my gut

> feeling, I could be totally wrong. You appear to want to play the

> devils advocate, and seem pretty adamant about your positions

> already. If I am wrong then...

> This is a journey you must make and you will decide what you will

> from the available information. Just as in a court of law you

have

> to decide who is more believable also, who has what to gain. You

> seem to think that DAN doctors have as much to gain as big pharma

in

> presenting 'Their side' but it is DAN doctors who have stuck their

> necks out, been investigated, ridiculed, risked their very jobs

and

> reputations to help our kids. It's not exactly an even match.

> If you want to investigate MMR/Autism you really need to read the

> research done by Dr. Yazbak. A huge number of us fit his

research,

> that us moms have our own immune system problems, never develop

> titers to MMR so are given it over and over and over and over,

> inlcuding after every birth (you wouldn't want to risk rubella if

> you want to have another child) then our children get their own

MMR

> and wham they are instantly autistic. Whether this is the MMR

alone

> or after mega doses of thimerisol that set them up is still

> debatable. A friend of mine got vaccinated with many vaccines in

> nursing school while she was pregnant but before she knew she was

> pregnant and Dr. Yazbak told her the odds were not good. And,

they

> were not, her child has been diagnosed with Autism.

> The epidemiological studies belong to the other side. All the

> science showing the devastating toxicity of thimerisol as a

vaccine

> additive are not epidemiological. There are links below.

> We know that the original Verstraeten study showed a correlation

> between thimerisol and autism greater than the connection between

> smoking and lung disease. We also know that the generational

> changes were so obvious that it was intended to lessen the numbers

> and the impact. Adding in 1 to 3 years olds, knowing there would

> not be diagnosis on these kids yet, for the most part. Then in

> another generation adding in the 17,000 kids that had originally

> been excluded because they were born with a birth defect. That is

> why their epidemiological studies are so bad.

> For me it's never been hard to understand or know the truth. My

> child collapsed after her vaccines and was autistic from that

point

> forward. It was not " around " the same time, nor " just

coincidental "

> but a direct and immediate result, no questions asked, and no one

> has ever denied that my daughters autism was caused by the

vaccines.

> Why is it such a huge leap that it happens a day later or 48 hours

> later or even two weeks later? They know that vaccines CAN cause

> Autism, they just refuse to admit that it does in most cases.

> What is your explanation or reasoning with yourself when our

> children test toxic for mercury? How do you reason with children

> that recover with biomedical treatment of their immune system

> problems, gut issues, chelation, and other treatments. The

numbers

> are growing and growing. I have a recoverd child and presented at

> the DAN conference this month in Seattle. We went from severely

> autistic to 100% mainstreamed and independent. I know the truth.

>

> Also the entire issue doesn't have to be some complex conspiracy

> theory with millions involved. It is simply business as usual,

use

> bogus science to claim effectiveness and safety, tell the lie

often

> enough until everyone believes it, even those working to invent

more

> and better drugs and vaccines, and always deny and refute anything

> that would affect your profit margin. I am sure many in the

> business really do believe they are doing what's best for

children.

> It doesn't take planning or collusion it is a way of life, big

> pharma educates and gifts young doctors while in training and even

> later so they are never going to question the status quo, plus

> vaccines are for some their bread and butter. It is very complex,

> and you will either find the truth or you will not.

> If you have read Evidence of Harm you know it is the best

> circumstancial case ever put together. They knew, they didn't

care

> and damaged our kids anyway. Others can say the jury is out, but

I

> know better. Over five years of research, I have learned more

than

> I ever wanted to about the entire vaccine belief system, and

natural

> disease, lifelong immunity and the flawed belief of how disease is

> and is not caused as well as its purpose.

> Perhaps the journey must be made on your own and then join up with

> those of like minds. I haven't heard any new arguments from the

> other side for a long long time now, just the same old lies and

> denials from those that seem to have the media in their pocket.

> Hope you find your answers. If you have an autistic child the

> sooner you act the better the potential outcome. It is a very

> difficult journey though, and I know it is not for everyone.

> Kendra

> Links below...happy reading

>

> As we added more and more vaccines with unconscionable levels of

> mercury, the autism rate exploded.

>

> The CDC calls this a coincidence and has the easily manipulated

> population studies to prove it. They don't however, have a single

> toxicological study done on the mercury used in vaccines that

shows

> it's safe to inject into children. They don't even have records

of

> the testing done on the mercury-based vaccine preservative,

> thimerosal, before it was put into use. That's because there was

> none.

>

> This is the real story of mercury use in vaccines that never gets

> covered by the press:

>

> Thimerosal goes back 75 years. It was invented and tested Eli

Lilly

> Pharmaceutical Company in 1930. The one study done on thimerosal

> was done by Eli Lilly on 22 adult patients suffering from

> meningitis. There was no chance for follow-up to observe long-term

> effects, as all of the patients died. Even if follow-up had been

> possible, damage to the developing brains of very young children

> would have remained an unknown. Eli Lilly said it was safe and the

> medical community just accepted it. After the creation of the

FDA,

> its use was simply continued. This is an unconscionable oversight

> failure and calls any safety claim into question.

>

> In his book, Evidence of Harm, journalist Kirby points out

> that " ...many researchers had sent the company [Eli Lilly]

documents

> dating back to the 1930's, each raising a red flag about

> thimerosal. " (EOH 207-209). Mr. Kirby chronologically lists over

> 70 years of scientific research on the damaging and deadly effects

> of thimerosal that was willfully ignored by Eli Lilly and the

> CDC.http://www.evidenceofharm.com/ Our CDC and FDA should be

> utterly embarrassed to make safety claims based on such a pathetic

> history of oversight.

>

> While the CDC says they haven't seen anything linking mercury in

> vaccines to autism, there are volumes of research findings on the

> deadly effects of thimerosal. Do a search for Dr. Boyd Haley,

> University of Kentucky; Dr. Mady Hornig, Columbia University, Dr.

> Burbacher, University of Washington; Dr. Mark Geier,

> President of The Genetic Centers of America and Geier, Vice

> President of The Institute of Chronic Illnesses, and Dr. Jill

,

> University of Arkansas. They are just a handful of the well-

> credentialed scientists whose work links thimerosal to

neurological

> damage in our children.

>

> Research on the effects of thimerosal can also be found on this

link:

>

> http://www.generationrescue.org/evidence_reports.html'

>

> The vast majority of the flu vaccine still contains mercury.

This

> vaccine is recommended for children from six months to five years

> old and for pregnant women at all stages of pregnancy. A child

(up

> to age three) receives a pediatric vaccine with 12.5 mcg of

mercury,

> an amount that can only be safely processed by someone weighing

275

> pounds according to the EPA. A month later they get another 12.5

> booster. A pregnant woman receives the adult vaccine with 25 mcg

of

> mercury, meant for someone weighing 550 pounds. This mercury

easily

> passes the placental barrier and enters the fetus whose brain is

> just developing.

>

> New Jersey physician, Dr. Lawrence D. Rosen, in Old Tappan, NJ

wrote

> that he's tried to get mercury-free flu vaccines for his patients

> without success. Most doctors aren't concerned with the high

> mercury content since the CDC has shown no preference.

>

> Dr. Rosen's email: <ldrdoc@...>

>

> One in every 166 children now has a diagnosis of autism. Twenty

> years ago, it was one in 10,000. Furthermore, one in every six

> schoolchildren now has some type of learning problem like

attention

> deficit. That's an epidemic increase, yet little is said about

all

> the autism now overwhelming our school by the Centers for Disease

> Control. This is the agency that is supposed to be the watchdog

of

> the country's health, but they're more concerned about a possible

> bird flu pandemic than an epidemic of autism among our children.

>

> Eighty percent of autistic Americans are under the age of

eighteen.

> Can you possibility imagine the day when one in every 166 eighteen

> year olds is going disability FOR LIFE WITH AUTISM? By 2010,

we'll

> see the beginning of the huge aging out of the mercury generation.

>

> The words of Bono of the National Autism Association should

be

> sounding an alarm. She recently said,

> " As those children reach adulthood, the U.S. is ill-equipped to

care

> for them. Not only do we not have enough services for adults now,

> the light at the end of the tunnel is a train. ly, we don't

> know what we're going to do. "

>

> Bono's email: <ldbono@...>

>

> There are so many people who have the credentials to speak as

> experts on this subject. Some have been featured on news

reports.

>

> Boyd E. Haley, PhD <behaley@...>;

> Leading international expert and author on mercury toxicity.

>

> Kirby <dkirby@...>;

> http://www.evidenceofharm.com/

> Journalist, author of Evidence of Harm

>

> Dan Olmsted, <dolmsted@...>;

> UPI editor and author of

> The Age of Autism <http://www.theageofautism.com/>

>

> Ken Stoller, MD <hbotnm@...>;

> Pediatrician, Santa Fe, NM

> works on recovering children from autism

> ED YAZBAK

>

> Ayoub, MD <raypoke@...>

> Radiologist, Springfield, IL

> helped passed IL bill to ban thimerosal from children's vaccines

in

> IL.

>

October 28, 2006

Because symptoms start within 24 hou rafter getting a vaccine.

hhf

Re: Not understanding

Kendra - I am not quite sure how to respond to your post. If I do not ask the questions, how am I supposed to arrive at the answers? Yours is the first response I have received that vaguely resembles an accusation of misrepresentation. I regret that my wording, tone, or some other aspect of my inquries has caused you to doubt my

October 28, 2006

and Website nitrf.org

----- Original Message -----

From: Fund

EOHarm

October 28, 2006

That is my biggest problem with people quoting studies. I believe that when a study is quoted, one must site where the study came from. I am still learning, I've only been at this for two years. I hear so many people tell me about studies and can't give me where they got it from. That is one of the things I liked about the EOH book. Kirby sited where the study came from so one may follow up on it or look at it themselves.

Just my two cents from a newby .

Vivian

Not understanding

Hi all - I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for my son's disability.I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies have been published that have failed to show the link between vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment options stems from this fact.Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly do not know what causes autism and have no special information which would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then, is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of the other?

October 28, 2006

Wow, Steve, I seriously don't know how you can look at the paper put together by Bernard et al and make that statement!!! I also don't know how you can read Evidence (did you read it?) and say that the studies on the other side weren't flawed. The problems with those studies are spelled out clearly! Excuse me if I'm emotional about this, but I watched the guys do it!!!!!

Also, I've been on this list for six years--SIX YEARS--and listened to the same story in several variations--my child got this amount of mercury and within two months this is what happened to him. Okay, now I've heard about chelating and the mercury is pouring out of my child and this and this and this symptom are disappearing. Okay, as more heavy metals emerge and I kill the viruses also put in by the vaccines, my child moves from severe autism to moderate autism to mild autism to ADD to almost NT.

Yes, some of us have the tough nuts--my son was 20 when we started--but he tells me about all the things that are now gone that mercury causes.

My take after hearing the life stories of literally hundreds or maybe thousands of kids is that "autism" is poisoning by toxic metals, primarily mercury, with a viral component thrown in for a lot of kids. The same thing would not be happening to all these kids if they were not experiencing the same causative agent and then removing that agent!

Also, their test results show mercury being excreted up the wazoo. Their tests for their effects of mercury on the body also show the markers of mercury poisoning. Yet they act "autistic" and stop acting "autistic" as the mercury is removed. Nothing does this as well, not ABA therapy, not anything else. I've researched this disability for twenty years and nothing has fit together like this.

Barb

Not understanding

Hi all - I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for my son's disability.I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies have been published that have failed to show the link between vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment options stems from this fact.Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly do not know what causes autism and have no special information which would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then, is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of the other?

October 28, 2006

Dear Steve,

I have a question for you. Do you believe mercury to be toxic to the

human body? If you believe mercury to be toxic (the EPA says no level

is safe ), then why, according to the medical establishment, is the

only place it is safe is when it is injected directly into the human

body or implanted in teeth? At all other times, it is one of the most

toxic substances known to mankind.

More questions to ask yourself... Why don't the CDC and FDA do a

scientific study today, in modern times with modern labs, on the

effects of mercury in the body, rather than relying on studies 50

years ago on terminally ill patients or epidemilogical studies that

can be easily manipulated? While my 8 year old son does not have an

autism diagnosis yet (we are starting evaluations and I expect to get

at least an ADD or possibly aspergers dx) he has too many health

problems to list that all involve the immune system. I have

autoimmune disease as well as others in both mine and my husbands

family. I also know now, fron Kirby's book ( and earlier genetic

testing to discover the cause of premature ovarian failure - an

autoimmune disease), that I have a mutation on the MTHFR gene that

interferes with antioxident production and detoxification.

Also, there are now scientific links to vaccines and juvenile

diabetes. Why is it so hard for our government to make the leap to

vaccines may disrupt the immune system and cause other immune related

diseases, such as hypothyroidism, allergies, asthma, etc.....??

These are the questions I have asked myself. I will err on the side

of caution ( ie NO VACCINES) until the CDC and FDA can produce

scientific evidence that they are safe FOR EVERYONE. My family will

no longer be those who are disposable for the greater good of herd

immunity.

These are my thoughts and are from a parent who reads on this subject

voraciously. Good luck in your search for answers for your child. It

is a long and winding road.

Sincerely

> >

> > Steve,

> > Whether our job is to convince you or not may be up for debate.

I

> > personally have a strange feeling you are not here to find out

any

> > truths, a little too adamant about repeating over and over that

> you

> > are just a parent looking for the truth. But that is just my gut

> > feeling, I could be totally wrong. You appear to want to play the

> > devils advocate, and seem pretty adamant about your positions

> > already. If I am wrong then...

> > This is a journey you must make and you will decide what you will

> > from the available information. Just as in a court of law you

> have

> > to decide who is more believable also, who has what to gain. You

> > seem to think that DAN doctors have as much to gain as big pharma

> in

> > presenting 'Their side' but it is DAN doctors who have stuck

their

> > necks out, been investigated, ridiculed, risked their very jobs

> and

> > reputations to help our kids. It's not exactly an even match.

> > If you want to investigate MMR/Autism you really need to read the

> > research done by Dr. Yazbak. A huge number of us fit his

> research,

> > that us moms have our own immune system problems, never develop

> > titers to MMR so are given it over and over and over and over,

> > inlcuding after every birth (you wouldn't want to risk rubella if

> > you want to have another child) then our children get their own

> MMR

> > and wham they are instantly autistic. Whether this is the MMR

> alone

> > or after mega doses of thimerisol that set them up is still

> > debatable. A friend of mine got vaccinated with many vaccines

in

> > nursing school while she was pregnant but before she knew she was

> > pregnant and Dr. Yazbak told her the odds were not good. And,

> they

> > were not, her child has been diagnosed with Autism.

> > The epidemiological studies belong to the other side. All the

> > science showing the devastating toxicity of thimerisol as a

> vaccine

> > additive are not epidemiological. There are links below.

> > We know that the original Verstraeten study showed a correlation

> > between thimerisol and autism greater than the connection between

> > smoking and lung disease. We also know that the generational

> > changes were so obvious that it was intended to lessen the

numbers

> > and the impact. Adding in 1 to 3 years olds, knowing there would

> > not be diagnosis on these kids yet, for the most part. Then in

> > another generation adding in the 17,000 kids that had originally

> > been excluded because they were born with a birth defect. That

is

> > why their epidemiological studies are so bad.

> > For me it's never been hard to understand or know the truth. My

> > child collapsed after her vaccines and was autistic from that

> point

> > forward. It was not " around " the same time, nor " just

> coincidental "

> > but a direct and immediate result, no questions asked, and no one

> > has ever denied that my daughters autism was caused by the

> vaccines.

> > Why is it such a huge leap that it happens a day later or 48

hours

> > later or even two weeks later? They know that vaccines CAN cause

> > Autism, they just refuse to admit that it does in most cases.

> > What is your explanation or reasoning with yourself when our

> > children test toxic for mercury? How do you reason with children

> > that recover with biomedical treatment of their immune system

> > problems, gut issues, chelation, and other treatments. The

> numbers

> > are growing and growing. I have a recoverd child and presented

at

> > the DAN conference this month in Seattle. We went from severely

> > autistic to 100% mainstreamed and independent. I know the truth.

> >

> > Also the entire issue doesn't have to be some complex conspiracy

> > theory with millions involved. It is simply business as usual,

> use

> > bogus science to claim effectiveness and safety, tell the lie

> often

> > enough until everyone believes it, even those working to invent

> more

> > and better drugs and vaccines, and always deny and refute

anything

> > that would affect your profit margin. I am sure many in the

> > business really do believe they are doing what's best for

> children.

> > It doesn't take planning or collusion it is a way of life, big

> > pharma educates and gifts young doctors while in training and

even

> > later so they are never going to question the status quo, plus

> > vaccines are for some their bread and butter. It is very

complex,

> > and you will either find the truth or you will not.

> > If you have read Evidence of Harm you know it is the best

> > circumstancial case ever put together. They knew, they didn't

> care

> > and damaged our kids anyway. Others can say the jury is out, but

> I

> > know better. Over five years of research, I have learned more

> than

> > I ever wanted to about the entire vaccine belief system, and

> natural

> > disease, lifelong immunity and the flawed belief of how disease

is

> > and is not caused as well as its purpose.

> > Perhaps the journey must be made on your own and then join up

with

> > those of like minds. I haven't heard any new arguments from the

> > other side for a long long time now, just the same old lies and

> > denials from those that seem to have the media in their pocket.

> > Hope you find your answers. If you have an autistic child the

> > sooner you act the better the potential outcome. It is a very

> > difficult journey though, and I know it is not for everyone.

> > Kendra

> > Links below...happy reading

> >

> > As we added more and more vaccines with unconscionable levels of

> > mercury, the autism rate exploded.

> >

> > The CDC calls this a coincidence and has the easily manipulated

> > population studies to prove it. They don't however, have a

single

> > toxicological study done on the mercury used in vaccines that

> shows

> > it's safe to inject into children. They don't even have records

> of

> > the testing done on the mercury-based vaccine preservative,

> > thimerosal, before it was put into use. That's because there was

> > none.

> >

> > This is the real story of mercury use in vaccines that never gets

> > covered by the press:

> >

> > Thimerosal goes back 75 years. It was invented and tested Eli

> Lilly

> > Pharmaceutical Company in 1930. The one study done on thimerosal

> > was done by Eli Lilly on 22 adult patients suffering from

> > meningitis. There was no chance for follow-up to observe long-

term

> > effects, as all of the patients died. Even if follow-up had been

> > possible, damage to the developing brains of very young children

> > would have remained an unknown. Eli Lilly said it was safe and

the

> > medical community just accepted it. After the creation of the

> FDA,

> > its use was simply continued. This is an unconscionable

oversight

> > failure and calls any safety claim into question.

> >

> > In his book, Evidence of Harm, journalist Kirby points out

> > that " ...many researchers had sent the company [Eli Lilly]

> documents

> > dating back to the 1930's, each raising a red flag about

> > thimerosal. " (EOH 207-209). Mr. Kirby chronologically lists

over

> > 70 years of scientific research on the damaging and deadly

effects

> > of thimerosal that was willfully ignored by Eli Lilly and the

> > CDC.http://www.evidenceofharm.com/ Our CDC and FDA should be

> > utterly embarrassed to make safety claims based on such a

pathetic

> > history of oversight.

> >

> > While the CDC says they haven't seen anything linking mercury in

> > vaccines to autism, there are volumes of research findings on the

> > deadly effects of thimerosal. Do a search for Dr. Boyd Haley,

> > University of Kentucky; Dr. Mady Hornig, Columbia University, Dr.

> > Burbacher, University of Washington; Dr. Mark Geier,

> > President of The Genetic Centers of America and Geier, Vice

> > President of The Institute of Chronic Illnesses, and Dr. Jill

> ,

> > University of Arkansas. They are just a handful of the well-

> > credentialed scientists whose work links thimerosal to

> neurological

> > damage in our children.

> >

> > Research on the effects of thimerosal can also be found on this

> link:

> >

> > http://www.generationrescue.org/evidence_reports.html'

> >

> > The vast majority of the flu vaccine still contains mercury.

> This

> > vaccine is recommended for children from six months to five years

> > old and for pregnant women at all stages of pregnancy. A child

> (up

> > to age three) receives a pediatric vaccine with 12.5 mcg of

> mercury,

> > an amount that can only be safely processed by someone weighing

> 275

> > pounds according to the EPA. A month later they get another 12.5

> > booster. A pregnant woman receives the adult vaccine with 25 mcg

> of

> > mercury, meant for someone weighing 550 pounds. This mercury

> easily

> > passes the placental barrier and enters the fetus whose brain is

> > just developing.

> >

> > New Jersey physician, Dr. Lawrence D. Rosen, in Old Tappan, NJ

> wrote

> > that he's tried to get mercury-free flu vaccines for his patients

> > without success. Most doctors aren't concerned with the high

> > mercury content since the CDC has shown no preference.

> >

> > Dr. Rosen's email: <ldrdoc@>

> >

> > One in every 166 children now has a diagnosis of autism. Twenty

> > years ago, it was one in 10,000. Furthermore, one in every six

> > schoolchildren now has some type of learning problem like

> attention

> > deficit. That's an epidemic increase, yet little is said about

> all

> > the autism now overwhelming our school by the Centers for Disease

> > Control. This is the agency that is supposed to be the watchdog

> of

> > the country's health, but they're more concerned about a possible

> > bird flu pandemic than an epidemic of autism among our children.

> >

> > Eighty percent of autistic Americans are under the age of

> eighteen.

> > Can you possibility imagine the day when one in every 166

eighteen

> > year olds is going disability FOR LIFE WITH AUTISM? By 2010,

> we'll

> > see the beginning of the huge aging out of the mercury generation.

> >

> > The words of Bono of the National Autism Association should

> be

> > sounding an alarm. She recently said,

> > " As those children reach adulthood, the U.S. is ill-equipped to

> care

> > for them. Not only do we not have enough services for adults

now,

> > the light at the end of the tunnel is a train. ly, we

don't

> > know what we're going to do. "

> >

> > Bono's email: <ldbono@>

> >

> > There are so many people who have the credentials to speak as

> > experts on this subject. Some have been featured on news

> reports.

> >

> > Boyd E. Haley, PhD <behaley@>;

> > Leading international expert and author on mercury toxicity.

> >

> > Kirby <dkirby@>;

> > http://www.evidenceofharm.com/

> > Journalist, author of Evidence of Harm

> >

> > Dan Olmsted, <dolmsted@>;

> > UPI editor and author of

> > The Age of Autism <http://www.theageofautism.com/>

> >

> > Ken Stoller, MD <hbotnm@>;

> > Pediatrician, Santa Fe, NM

> > works on recovering children from autism

> > ED YAZBAK

> >

> > Ayoub, MD <raypoke@>

> > Radiologist, Springfield, IL

> > helped passed IL bill to ban thimerosal from children's vaccines

> in

> > IL.

> >

>

October 28, 2006

This is my experience. My 13 year old NT daughter, with severe allergies and asthma and my almost 5 year old ASD son were both vaccinated. Both had problems within two days of their vaccines (using CDC schedule). Both were in the doctor's office with ear infections, high fevers, screaming the night of the vaccines, projectile vomiting, etc. within two days of vaccines. I blindly trusted the doctors. My daughter had her first asthma attack when she was only two years old. My ASD son received his MMR at 12 mos, along with other vaccines, and the next day, he had a little bigger than a golf ball size lump on his lymph nodes (sp) in his groin area, plus a high fever. Doctor said, "don't worry about it." Within three days, he stopped talking (he had a four word vocabulary), stopped making eye contact and stop being playful with his little friends. Not to mentioned he looked like he was stoned all the time (looking through you, tired looking, etc.).

I have an eight month old beautiful son that isn't vaccinated and he is the picture of perfect health. The only doctor visits he has had is for well baby check ups without vaccines. Not one ear infection, fever, screaming, etc. I have read about both sides. This group and the studies showing a link between vaccines and Autism could be totally wrong (which hasn't been proven to be totally wrong), however, I'm not willing to risk my baby's life with a, "vaccines might be safe" assumption.

I am not anti-vaccine because some of the vaccines have a good purpose. I'm anti-CDC schedule. I will follow the following schedule from Dr. Hicks, whom has an autistic son and orders the vaccines separate and preservative free. His schedule is on his website: http://www.pathwaysmed.com/menu/education/education300.html.

My ASD son has been doing bio-medical (GFCF diet, TD-DMPS, supplements, etc). He also does OT, Speech, Hippo and 12 hours per week of ABA therapies. Both private and in his public school. All has contributed to my son being able to be mainstreamed next school year (kindergarten). I've done all the tests to make sure that the supplements and the chelation were necessary. And they were. Before bio-med., my son's yeast was through the roof.

Anyway, I will not go through this all over again with my baby. I'm not willing to risk his life. And the guilt I have for doing this to my older two children are still lingering. I believe that parents should have all the facts before they vaccinate their children and make an informed decision.

Thanks for letting me vent .

Vivian

Not understanding

Hi all - I am a new member of this discussion group. My son is 5 and is autistic. My purpose when joining the group was to expand my knowledge base so I can determine the best course of treatments for my son's disability.I am hoping someone can help me to understand what I am perceiving to be a foundational belief of this group - that Autism is caused by environmental toxicity. Most specifically, by thimerosal in vaccines. I know that Kirby's book presented compelling evidence that this is the case. I also know that numerous studies have been published that have failed to show the link between vaccinations and the onset of Autism. So I am trying to understand why a large group of clearly intelligent people have arrived at the decision that this is a fact, and that their choice of treatment options stems from this fact.Please understand that I am not trying to cause an argument or to question the validity of anyone's beliefs on this issue - I certainly do not know what causes autism and have no special information which would lead me to believe that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. It seems to me that there is some conflicting science. So what, then, is causing this group to fall on one side of the debate instead of the other?

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